86 replies to this topic

[Krey]

For me, there are three aspects to this question. I'd like to preface by saying that philosophical debate is almost always meaningless, considering that everything we say here is an unfalsifiable claim. For me, there exists fate, destiny, and free will. Fate consists of all of the events which cannot be changed. Destiny consists of all the events which occur because of our direct actions. Free will determines our fate as well as our destiny.

Fate consists of things such as death, the collapse of the universe, the death of a sun; in other words, things which cannot be changed no matter how much we try to intervene or for how long.

Destiny consists of nearly every other event which we can create or prevent by our own actions. To clarify, destiny is much like a law of cause and effect. If you do action A, effect B will occur and our "destiny" is effect B. We choose our own destiny and can change it at any time.

As for the supernatural or psychics coming into this discussion, I don't see any conclusive or close to conclusive evidence for the existence of god, the supernatural, or anything beyond the physical plane. When people who fervently believe in god ask about my religious affiliation, i just tell them i'm an atheist. To believe that something exists which cannot be sensed by any of the senses is a marvel of human intelligence to me.

Just to put it into perspective, I own a magical pink unicorn. Only I can see it, and its ethereal, but its real and i own it. now, can you prove that i don't own that unicorn? can you really prove it? no.

[Tony Oguri]

I think everything is fate. First, if there is an omnipotent God (and I believe there is) by definition God would know everything past, present, and future. If there is a Heaven/Hell, God would know where you are going before you are born.

Secondly, there is a finite possibility for everything. If we know the instant before all of the values of all the variables (which would include all the neuron settings in everyone's brain) we would know what would happen next. But there are just too many variables to analyze to determine what will happen next. So, we mistaken this for free-will.

[바니 ｢вσηкyυ｣]

I guess my point of view can go either way really.

I believe in fate but yet I also believe in a higher power
Like I believe in god and what he stands for, I don't necessarily agree with a lot of the people that follow his words. Yet I also believe in other deities from different religious (hinduism/buddhism) and some of the things they teach as well. If you think something wrong will happen subconsciously, you usually try to avoid doing that one thing right? That is free will~ yet.. maybe... it was something telling you not too to help you out down the road.

I personally believe that everything happens for a reason, that's where fate comes in.
Yet, I also believe that you choose your own destiny; that's where the free will comes in.

It's a double ended sword of sorts, it can go either way.

[Krey]

Secondly, there is a finite possibility for everything. If we know the instant before all of the values of all the variables (which would include all the neuron settings in everyone's brain) we would know what would happen next. But there are just too many variables to analyze to determine what will happen next. So, we mistaken this for free-will.

Just as a rebuttal, considering this, humans never act by themselves. We don't have to mistake cognition for free will. I think what we're considering free will here is humans reacting to their environment. Considering this, we would also have to be able to know exactly how a person's environment is going to shape around them in order to determine what happens next. To analyze this, we would have to understand and be able to analyze sub-atomic particles. To think that we could analyze billions upon billions of sub-atomic particles at once, in order to get a somewhat accurate reading of how their environment is going to change is at this point, theoretically impossible. The popular theory is that sub-atomic particles, at that level of existence, shift in and out of a specific number of dimensions. That number changes, depending on what theory you ascribe yourself to. This makes their existence in terms of our dimension and especially their movement, random. In other words, impossible to measure. In other words, we can never say for sure how an environment will shape around a person, making it impossible for us to know how they would react in any given situation. That's my take on it at least.

[Tony Oguri]

^ Good point. There definitely is randomness on the quantum level. You can even see it continually happening in the jets of light/energy coming from some black holes. Normally we'd expect nothing to escape the black hole. But the randomness allows for the chance of it to happen, and it does.

I don't see this quantum randomness giving us any free will though. Our brains should, and probably do, correctly calculate the highest probability values for the "variables". For example, when we want to walk out of a room our brain instinctively knows there is a chance we could take a shortcut by walking right through wall (due to the proven randomness of quantum theory) but we normally choose to go through the door instead. What we'll do in the next instant I believe can be theoretically calculated (not practical though, there are too many variables). If, during that instant, something of lower probability should happen then those values are used for calculating what we'll do in the next instance.

It's pretty interesting though, isn't it? Suppose a person should be doing work but is instead playing video games. Can we say that person had no choice in the matter? That doesn't make sense. But we could have calculated the instant before the person clicked on the game icon that he was going to do it. Then keep going backward one instant at a time from there.

[Krey]

^ Good point. There definitely is randomness on the quantum level. You can even see it continually happening in the jets of light/energy coming from some black holes. Normally we'd expect nothing to escape the black hole. But the randomness allows for the chance of it to happen, and it does.

I don't see this quantum randomness giving us any free will though. Our brains should, and probably do, correctly calculate the highest probability values for the "variables". For example, when we want to walk out of a room our brain instinctively knows there is a chance we could take a shortcut by walking right through wall (due to the proven randomness of quantum theory) but we normally choose to go through the door instead. What we'll do in the next instant I believe can be theoretically calculated (not practical though, there are too many variables). If, during that instant, something of lower probability should happen then those values are used for calculating what we'll do in the next instance.

It's pretty interesting though, isn't it? Suppose a person should be doing work but is instead playing video games. Can we say that person had no choice in the matter? That doesn't make sense. But we could have calculated the instant before the person clicked on the game icon that he was going to do it. Then keep going backward one instant at a time from there.

I think i can see a compromise here. I believe you are correct in assuming that free will probably does not exist, considering that all aspects of a particular environment will inevitably come together to form one solitary outcome that we are bound to. We cannot defy the laws of physics. However, I would also say that i believe it is beyond the scope of human intelligence to assume that we will ever be able to understand or know what a person will do next in any given situation, considering quantum randomness when dealing with environmental changes and the complexity of the brain, etc. If we were able to, It might be 10,000 or 100,000 or 10,000,000 years before we can develop an accurate way of determining what or when a person will do a certain thing.

[Tony Oguri]

I think we can agree on your compromise. There's no way to know for sure what will happen due to the shear number of variables. It sure feels like we have free will. Are you going out to a Mexican restaurant tomorrow and know for sure you'll get the Combo #1 right now? But at the restaurant you here the lady at the next table say, "The enchiladas are bad today." and you change to Combo #6.

And you think about what is going to make you smile and be happy. You have a good idea of what is, but will it materialize? All paths appear to be open right now.

On a very micro scale and on a super macro scale, I'm a big fan of "it had to happen this way". But there's 80% in between.

A couple books on, "Why we are here" have been read. Both pointed to a relatively small set of circumstances. So, a book by Martin Rees entitled, "Just Six Numbers" was picked up. Not read yet. But will be read next after this so-so book about the "weight of matter" is finished. You know, bust an atom up and it's constituent parts weigh less than 10% of the atom. Where is the other 90% of the weight? What is matter made of? The asides are interesting because it explains why the SSC was abandoned (political and budgetary reasons). I hope the Rees book re-enforces the notion of seeing where we are today and how it had to happen this way. Working backwards, if you will.

All this stuff is pretty fundamental, interesting, and perhaps can give an explanation as to why we are here. (edit: aside from worshiping idols )