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| Oikaze
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Jun 30 2011 06:26 PM
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Dear UFA, please photograph H!P idols in the manner shown above.
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| Stitch2000
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Jun 30 2011 08:25 PM
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yes please
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| chisemlg
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Jun 30 2011 08:37 PM
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^
^
H!P girls no need to enter on that "type of market" to sell her products.
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| tripolis
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Jun 30 2011 08:39 PM
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^ it would also help to have better singers, dancers and song-writers.
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| vutt
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Jun 30 2011 08:50 PM
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...and last but not least H!P is lacking this kind of exceptional source material. Mano-chan is probably closest to this type of girl who can effortlessly pull off cute and sexy image.
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| aaronrockies
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Jun 30 2011 09:19 PM
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Love it soo soft
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| carrls
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Jun 30 2011 11:11 PM
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@Oikaze:
Please explain to me the difference between this picture and these ones:
http://hpsv.tusell.net/pics/ai1.jpg
http://hpsv.tusell.net/pics/ai2.jpg
http://hpsv.tusell.net/pics/eri1.jpg
Because either I'm too perverted to notice a difference or I don't know anything a bout photography but I think Ai and Eri are pushing the envelop further than Tomomi here!
No complaints, just observation and pure curiosity, I don't really think I'm THAT perverted...
who am I kidding... I am... ¬¬'
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| Oikaze
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Jun 30 2011 11:47 PM
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^ Well, as a master of overanalysis, I would say that most H!P pics lack (the fault of the photographers, no doubt), a certain alluring presence and sensual context.
The girl in the pic above gets everything right... the doe-eyed yet knowing expression with the pouty lips, the hand poised as if to remove that cloth- even the smallest details, like her fingernails, jewelry and leggings, are gravure perfection. Only in a few H!P pics (mostly Rika pics) is the partnership between idol, cameraman and assorted crew of such harmony as to get results like this.
Edit: That Kamei pic, however, is on the highest level of quality (it's rare in H!P but common in AKB48).
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| kira1912
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Jul 01 2011 01:03 AM
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^ WTH are you talking about?! D:
http://www.hello-onl...26181108327.jpg
that photographer is pro!
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| Oikaze
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Jul 01 2011 01:07 AM
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^ Actually, that photographer is an amateur... literally. I'm pretty sure that was taken by a fan. XD At any rate, it's not quite on the level of the pic above or that pic of Kamei.
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| KameiDreams
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Jul 01 2011 01:08 AM
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To me it has to do with the way both companies depict sensuality. H!P has always played the "demure Japanese" kind of sensuality; while AKB presents a bolder, more "western" approach. I think both are good though...
EDIT: Of course, there a few exceptions from both sides
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| Oikaze
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Jul 01 2011 01:28 AM
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^ AKB48 is less subtle, but frankly most American stuff is sort of like this (don't worry, it's G-rated): http://www.damnimcut...2/megan-fox.jpg
Or worse yet... http://www.celebrity...la-anderson.jpg
Enough to turn a man gay (if that were possible)... AKB48 isn't like that. Of course, there was a time when we Americans got it right... http://www.wikifeet....Feet-104533.jpg
But alas, not anymore.
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| KameiDreams
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Jul 01 2011 01:48 AM
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^ I'm not saying that AKB is skanky (as sometimes Western-type pics are), hence the quotation marks in "western". I'm just saying that AKB tends to be bolder than H!P in that aspect
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| Oikaze
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Jul 01 2011 02:11 AM
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^ Agreed on all points.
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| Chimai
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Jul 01 2011 02:15 AM
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...interesting discussion.
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| LuisH
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Jul 01 2011 12:17 PM
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@chisemlg
H!P has always done photos like this.
Wonder why AKB sells better...
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| Eeyore
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Jul 01 2011 02:17 PM
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Big difference is that H!P generally does swimwear / bikinis... whereas AKB is quite happy doing underwear (such as this particular pic). There's a big difference between a girl in a bikini and a girl in underwear... merely in terms of what it might suggest.
Also to me it seems that AKB does work more on "sexy sells", where as H!P is more "cute sells".
Only unfortunately "cute" doesn't sell nearly as well as it used to.
Of course there's overlap and nothing is ever really that simple.
But anyhoo - this pic brings a smile to my face... so gets my approval! :)
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| Yossi_love
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Jul 01 2011 02:22 PM
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I love her eyes. And I REALLY mean her eyes!
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| carrls
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Jul 01 2011 03:18 PM
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^
^
I don't think that is underwear... There's no way, and girls correct me if I'm wrong, that any girl would be comfortable wearing that ribbon on their chests with a blouse or shirt on top of it.
It seems like a swim suit just like the one Aichan is sporting here:
http://hpsv.tusell.net/pics/ai2.jpg
On the other hand, my dear beloved Tomochin, she's like Zoolander, only one face, you can see that same expression on her Dear J video or when Shibuya is at her most angry and on a blood frenzie!
There's no possible way in which she won't look ultra cute and super sexy!
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| sinobu801
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Jul 01 2011 03:41 PM
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@Eeyore : since u're pretty much confident abt "what will sell in japan"
well, baby!x3 of AKB did a lot of swimsuit. But it doesn't sold that much. Also, for a little far of the road, many idols out there started to wear bikini but they don't do well, neither. (SuperGirl?) Could u please explain to me why "sexy" didn't sell well there? Doesn't it like "as long as you take off your clothes and do bikini/underwear, you will have a million sale?" Because I did believe that was how AKB sell this much (those sluts!)
And for many no.1 oricon singles, there aren't any bikini or underwear to start with. Like, River, Beginner, the 2010& 2011 sakura song. But those still sell. Could you please explain that as well? Probably they cheated the number? (those cheaters!)
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| Oikaze
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Jul 01 2011 07:07 PM
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^ I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say.
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| Eeyore
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Jul 01 2011 09:30 PM
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@Oikaze, me neither.
If sinobu801 thinks I said that "sexy always sells well!" and "to sell well all they need to do is wear swimwear/underwear", then it's a pity they can't read.
If sinobu801 thinks I have said that the only reason AKB are selling well is because they do swimwear/underwear stuff... then it's a pity they can't read.
Maybe they're equating "sexy" with swimwear/underwear? If so then they need to get out more.
But I still hold to the view that AKB go more for "sexy" and H!P go more for "cute".
(I'll wait for the criticisms of how this means I'm saying that AKB are sluts, cheaters, and only ever dressed in bikinis/underwear).
Tomomi is still cute/sexy... and I like the Zoolander comparison :D
As for whether it's underwear or swimwear... perhaps "lingerie" more than just "underwear"... but it's the leggings and the top that lend toward the "lingerie" over the swimwear.
(That ai-chan pic, though... :nosebleed:)
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| Oikaze
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Jul 01 2011 09:59 PM
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^ Yes, AKB48 is very sexy, from what I've seen, yet in a cute way. I can think of some early American and European sex symbols who could pull that off (Brigitte Bardot was the best non-Asian example ever, I think).
What today's American sex symbols haven't mastered is the ability to be sexual without being so fake and/or aggressive that they seem like the Bride of Frankenstein. In a side note, I don't think today's leading men are on the same level as earlier leading men (e.g. Cary Grant), but my reasons for that are quite different.
Anyhow, the above pic is cute, beautiful and sexy and I really would like to see more H!P pics like it. I don't mean every idol... the younger idols should still do the strictly cutesy stuff.
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| KameiDreams
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Jul 01 2011 10:10 PM
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We are on our way to write a book on Idol Sexuality
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| Oikaze
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Jul 01 2011 10:22 PM
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^ I think Tsunku addressed some of that in a book he wrote, and I daresay the guy in charge of AKB48 could write a similar book.
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| carrls
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Jul 01 2011 11:10 PM
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Well, to give sinobu801 something to think about....
The Baby!x3 single didn't sell well for a couple of factors you neglected to mention...
1. ABK48 had no record label at the time so there was limited promotion
2. AKB48 was still surrounded by the turmoil caused by the recent scandal, which led them to loose their record label (DefStar)
3. It was a digital single, so no hard copy could be purchased at the time of release, so we could purchase one copy amongst ourselves and share it, digital copies we know have no quality loss... and we have to consider that intangibles are way more difficult to sell than hard copies, specially if they have no big promotion behind.
An even with all those odds against them Baby!x3 was the one sinlge that kept them afloat and had them come out of the big mess their producer had got into.
Of course the subsecuent singles were very good (well at least some of them) and that finished the job, but what kept AKB48 in the minds of people at that time were those ultra cutesey girls bouncing around a swiming pool in their sexy bikinis!
And of course Maeda's strip in a hotel room!! quite delicious and HOT!!!!
Ater Baby!x3 bikinis became everyday's meal!! Thank goodness!! XD
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| Oikaze
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Jul 01 2011 11:35 PM
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^ "bikinis became everyday's meal" What do they taste like? Wait... don't answer that! XD
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| Malachite
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Jul 01 2011 11:35 PM
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I like cute things.
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| Oikaze
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Jul 01 2011 11:41 PM
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^ So do I (ever see how I gush about Yuuka?), but cuteness and sexiness aren't mutually exclusive. Most idols have the ability to be both... Sayumi is a good example.
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| carrls
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Jul 02 2011 01:43 AM
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Another observation for our friend sinobu801 to think about...
(yeah it was meant to be in 2 parts =P)
Of those singles that went #1 in oricon, which rates sales and not popularity, some included the ballot for voting the senbatsu or any other incentive of that kind, so of course they sold well, but how many fans purchased more than one or more than 10 units just to increase the number of votes for their favorites?? and as you eloquently defined it, I do consider it cheating...
I love them to death none the less and it's in no possible way the girl's fault, but there is a lot of trickery coming out from AKB48 management in my opinion!
But hey, Akimoto is running out of ideas already, if not the "Kachusha" video wouldn't be a collection of many past video's themes!
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| tattoo fish
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Jul 02 2011 02:21 AM
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I hate both sexiness and cuteness, so this pic is just horrible for me and no idol group should ever do something like it. :(
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| emanc
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Jul 03 2011 02:05 AM
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@ carris: Their latest album sold over 700K so far without the usual gimmicks you guys call cheating; e.g. handshake tickets, election ballots and it is much more pricey. And I don't get how you can call brilliant marketing cheating. Any idol group can copy what AKB does but I doubt any of them can do any better.
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| oroboras
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Jul 03 2011 03:25 AM
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^ The thing is, AKB48 have now passed from the sub-culture of Idol otaku, into the realms of "popular/mainstream culture", so of course the album will sell well - the AKB brand is on everyones lips at the moment.
I agree with Oikaze, on the image front. That Tomochin pic is very professionally done - if a little over 'shopped (especially with the eyes), but it does exactly what it is designed to do - showing how beautiful she is, and how, now she has reached her majority, she has turned into a beautiful woman - you can't stay 'cute' forever, eventually you become beautiful. Hats off to the photographer!
I also agree that H!P do tend to go for the 'cute', over the 'sexy' image - it's just their way, especially since their target audience is (once again - now they aren't mainstream any more) the aforementioned Idol otaku.
They have a strategy for their particular target audience, and they are sticking to it.
I think they know they have no chance of out-doing AKB as things stand, but since they are aiming for a different market, then it's not really like they have to - plus, it seems that for Idol otaku, on the whole, cute is much preferrable. Even when in revealing clothing, the pictures focus on the innocence and purity.
I do think that when AKB's 'time in the sun' comes to an end (and it will, no one stays massively popular forever, no matter how good they are), then they may well go back to the cute appearance (like the early songs/PVs were) as this is the best way to continue to survive if your only audience is wota.
Personally I like both H!P and AKB (and many other Indie groups too), and AKB have been the only ones to really push into the 'sexy' market properly, but then again, it's no bad thing, especially when it gets them extra fans. If a strategy works, then seize it!
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| Krusha
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Jul 04 2011 08:28 PM
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What I cannot stand to hear from people who supposedly are fans of idols (doesn't matter what name), is to refer to sales methods etc. as "gimmicks" or "cheating".
It's not. It's a free market. If someone wants to sell a single for 1600 Yen, with a cover that has nothing on it, and a CD which only has two tracks on it, a regular song and an instrumental - and then nothing else - then that is their right.
Likewise, if someone wants to sell a CD with a free bonus photo - of which some might be randomly signed - and 3 original tracks, 3 instrumentals, 3 PV's on a DVD plus an extra video, handshake ticket, 2shot ticket, voting ticket, event ticket, or whatever else - also for 1600 Yen - then that is their right too.
People ultimately are the ones who buy or don't buy. So personally as a fan of idols I like that they embrace "Reason To Buy" concept, and lets me as buyer get as much as possible with each purchase. It's not a gimmick, nor is it cheating - it is a great service, something which many could learn from.
Recent AKB48 album - although I could probably find another non-AKB48 example - is very good:
Limited version = Box set, photobook, random photo, lottery prize ticket, 2shot ticket, and an album with 16 tracks, no fillers (as in remix of a song already on the album, or random talk or stuff not being music), and a total duration of 1hr 9min.
Say what you will about the quality of the songs or such, but where other Western artists releases "albums" that last around 40+ mins or so, and the music on it is subpar to say the least, it's refreshing to see how it's done in Japan.
I for one hope these "gimmicks" continue for a long time.
And the same goes for AKB's photoshoots, I hope they too continue for a long time - whether overly cute or overly sexy!
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| stany
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Jul 08 2011 11:14 AM
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It's called added value.
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| QuickCrusader
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Jul 08 2011 11:53 AM
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@_@ error function...
photographer done their job perfectly...
photographer done :
hello-project : simple, cute and 30 - 60% sexy focus
akb48 : focus on sexyness
basically on official images.
blog images... various.
sales, more stuff in package = interesting = people buyed more,
because have stuff from their idols.
sales, no stuff = normal.
XD, opinion.
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| sinobu801
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Jul 08 2011 03:58 PM
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^
If you care enough to see & watch eveything, there are a tons of cuteness in AKB from younger or older members.
But that if you care enough to see through everything than just focus yourself on watch you think on the 1st place.
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| Oikaze
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Jul 08 2011 09:06 PM
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By Zeus, what a monster I have begotten.
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| QuickCrusader
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Jul 08 2011 09:27 PM
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@sinobu801
I'm talking about theirs focus..in photography.. are.
hello-project more likely give cuteness way
Akb's more likely to focus on sexyness..
I'm not saying they are not cute. XD
and I'm not saying Akb's never have cute pictures..
and I'm not saying hello-project never have sexy pictures..
I'm saying about their producer/business wanted to presented to public's
and that's is my opinion., cheer
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| carrls
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Jul 08 2011 09:28 PM
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^
^
You evil evil man!! hehehe XD
Krusha is right in part, about suporting the idols we love, I do and I love them, but it's not them who are making the money, it's their agencies, all they get is a fixed salary, quarterly, monthly, I don't know...
I do call it "gimmick" or "trick" because, and only because people judge the sucess of the music by the single sales, but if the single has an "added value" people is not purchasing the music, is purchasing Achan's autograph, Yuko's limited edition signed photo, or any other thing included... THAT is fantastic marketing, because I can get so many things from my favorite girls, BUT saying that the single was successful because it sold 700k copies is not accurate and that is the trick.
A lot of people bought the photo not the music, bought the limited edition article included, bougth the senbatsu ballot, the hand shake event ticket, they didn't buy the single, they got it because that's the only way to get the secret web address to go and vote for your favorite, that's the only way to get my sweet Rena's signed photo... the single we can get it from the tracker!!
or iTunes...
So stating that such and such singles didn't expose the girls in bikinis and it still sold X ammount of copies and that tanslates into a successful single is a TRICK!!!
And as I said, it's not the girls fault at all, they give their best and work their tushies off to get where they are but the management is throwing false numbers into account...
I value more Tokyo Girls Style's 5,000 copies sold that were bought for the music than 700k that were sold because I wanted my signed photo or my ballot or my hand shake event ticket....
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| Krusha
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Jul 08 2011 09:59 PM
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They sold x amount of copies, the end.
It either sold that or not. If it did, that is what it sold.
Who are you to say who buys which single for what? There's tons of people who buys AKB48 singles for the music. We have sales figures, that's all we can relate to.
So, what you are doing now is more or less snobbery.
There's no correlation between amount of sold copies and presumed quality of music. "Quality of music" is all subjective...
If people like something, they will buy it. And with the promotion and support TGS is getting from Avex, considering "their music" which you mention, one might wonder why they hardly even make a dent in the charts, just like their predecessors SweetS...
If handshake tickets or similar bothers you, why not take into account all the other idol groups that does the same, then compare sales figures again.
We're in 2011, the music market is experiencing a decline in sales. The "Why" can be answered with many explanations - as it's not black and white straight forward simple. There's of course the aspect of more people downloading their music instead of buying it. But there's more too.
At any rate, idols in Japan have a more unique approach to this problem than most artists around. They are capable of creating a meta-society, where followers of the idols and the idols themselves can be viewed as a family. The idols serve the fans, and the fans serve the idols.
It is not just about the music, nor have it ever been.
Here it's about selling a product - a multi-layered product - which can be approached and appreciated from many different angles.
Music, videos, images, radio, TV shows, DVD's, concerts, events, photos, goods, and so on. It's a complete package - and it is indeed made for one thing only, and that's for whomever created these idols to make money.
If they can't make money, they probably won't last long. Regardless of quality of music. See SweetS for an example of this.
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| carrls
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Jul 08 2011 10:37 PM
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^
As I said before, you are right up to some extent, I agree with you in most of what you have said, and I would not dare to judge you for things I don't agree with.
I'm not against of agencies or people making money, come on, no money would mean no idols, and what am I without my daily dose of my favorite idols.
I just don't like some aspects of how information is served, nothing more and nothing else.
I love it when they "shove up our throats" like some have said, for example team 4 before they were promoted, or Riho, or any other girl, they are investing in something they believe it's good for sales and we get to see more cute girls on the front lines. WinxWin!!!!
But in my ideal world, and big emphasis on my, I'd love if 48ers or any other group would sell millions for their music.
I guess that my itch is more towards that many of my favorite songs have not made that much and other songs, that to me were not that good, did absolutely great and broke records and this and that! I'm talking just about the 48ers songs here, not any other groups.
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| .gina
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Jul 08 2011 10:49 PM
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Put it this way, if H!P singles had more things that were worth having like 2 shot tickets and autographs they'd sell better. Don't blame AKB just because they actually understand what people want.
Also this Tomochin pic is epic but she is awesome.
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| sinobu801
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Jul 08 2011 11:34 PM
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^
^
So simply said, you bought 48's singles because of those ticket or pictures? And you don't like the music or it's not that important to you (even a single full of duck-quacking or dog-barking is fine as long as there are tickets & pictures?) That's why YOU think it's not the music that make that single top 700-1m sale?
Ok, that might be right for YOU only. You can not talk for other 699,999 people who also bought the same single. Maybe they bought it because they like the music? Who know?
And if you can't know for sure the actual number of ppl who bought that single because of what, please spare yourself from feeling "bad" because your idol group "didn't" sale based on thier music.
----
As for me, 48's music is decent compare to any idol group out there.
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| Malachite
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Jul 09 2011 12:35 AM
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"mo' money mo' haters" - Akimoto Yasushi as he reads anti-AKB comments on the internet while climbing into his private jet
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| carrls
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Jul 09 2011 01:56 AM
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^
^
I recommend you learn to read AND understand what you read first, then you judge other people...
Read my comments again and then think about if what you made of them was right...
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| sinobu801
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Jul 09 2011 02:18 AM
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No, I ask you: If you think there are ppl who buy the singles just for the "add-on" then what if a single with just @(*)(@ sound and ticket / picture, will that sale? NO because it's a package.
And you said you value 5000 copy of Tokyo Girls Style's more than 700k copy of 48's because of those ticket/picture. So won't that just implied you don't care care much abt 48's music? Will you buy a single full of @(#*@!) sound just because you need a picture? NO.
Then I ask you again, u really know the exact number of ppl who buy 48's singles because of their MUSIC, let aside those "trick" you mention in every post?? If this > 5000, then what will you VALUE then? Sorry but I think that you are ridiculous to think that way.
And it seems like you can't even tell an idol and an artist apart. Sorry again to break your world, but idol is a package deal. The word "Idol" itself include everything you call "trick". Just because those other group are so elf-ing stupid to take all legal advantage of the idol world doesn't make it a trick.
I recommend you to remember those two words in your post : TRICK & VALUE! Don't feel that way. But again. it's your own mind.
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| Morning Death
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Jul 09 2011 04:15 AM
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In one hand, I hate fish because I find it to be disgusting since I have memory, since I remember spilling my guts out, around 3 or 4 years old, all over the toilet after taking a bite at it. But then I see how beautiful the skin of Japanese girls are with their diets centered around fish and I can't help but thank that that disgusting thing is around to be eaten.
There may be photoshop in this pic, but we know how Tomomi's skin is.
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| stany
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Jul 09 2011 10:06 AM
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^ I hate them too, the only one I like is tattoo fish. :D
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