392 replies to this topic

[MimiChama]

wow that's pretty bad. But if you look at it from another side - everyone knew that this was a more or less minor release, just for the memories of Old MM. I think many fans moved on -switched fandom, abandoned fandom completely (not meaning it negatively - but people grew, and I think many people don't really care about music when they grow older).
I think most peolpe didn't take this single seriously and that's ok ^^

(I'm really bad at putting what I want to express into words right now, sorry)

[Helder Ribeiro]

Music Station performance:

http://www.tokyohive...n-performances/

[SFG]

This is coming from a casual fan of both H!P and Jpop...

H!P should have been gone 3 or 4 years ago and should be destroyed a year ago. UFA failed on so many things that it is uncountable. They failed on giving Linlin some lines who was easily a top 3 singer when she was in MM. The JJ+LL combo could have lit up the industry just like Two Top, but they didn't put them forward enough. Tsunku's quality of songs are plummeting fast. I don't feel like he is trying anymore. They didn't adopt new releasing styles and all the other idols ran over them. Two ORIGINAL songs per single doesn't cut it anymore. And don't get me started on the lack of DVD content...

As for Dream Morning Musume, my first thought was "What's the point?" Seriously, what is the point of putting everyone together again?

Promotion is good, but it won't guarantee you sales. If the public don't care about the single, they don't care no matter how much you promote. Easiest way is a strong tie-up like CM or drama/anime. Most of H!P tie-ups have 90% of the casts as members and that is not good.

Note to all, Passpo, SUPER GiRLS, Idoling, AKB groups and many more are outselling H!P. And I'm pretty sure a years worth of single releases from H!P can't beat ONE single from SKE (let alone AKB...).

*This is my opinion and it shouldn't affect TPF in any way*

[NightOfFire’21]

Ok, a reply coming from a "non-casual fan" (I don't consider myself hardcore either). And disclaimer, this is all my opinion, you're all entitled to think differently, as I am to express mine.

I agree with you with the CD and DVD content, Single V aren't cut out anymore, and singles should have more extra stuff and incentives so that you buy multiples copies. AKB model is very good at that (a bit extreme with the handshakes tickets, but the bonuses, different b-sides and stuff are great incentives)
_______________________

I disagree in many other things though, specially on the "plummeting quality" and "Tsunku not caring anymore":


I think that 2010 was an unremarkable year musically for momusu, singles were ok but not great. The only big exception (musically, since there was the infamous graduations) was 10 My Me, which is imo, MM's best album yet.

C-ute worst year was 2009 and part of 2010 ( Bye Bye Bye!, Shochuu Omimai, EVERYDAY Zekkouchou, SHOCK, Campus Life) , they started a great run with Dance de Bakoon though.

Berryz also had a so-so year in 2010 (Otakebi Boy WAO!, Maji Bomber, Shining Power )

S/mileage debut was very good, it's the highlight of 2010 I believe. Mano Erina also had great singles in Onegai Dakara and Genkimono de Ikou!

But overall, 2010 wasn't a great year musically, that's why I could feel something similar as you, that Tsunku didn't care (another sign, was that there weren't any auditions for several years)

2011 was the year of change though (actually it all started at the END of 2010), and it showed a more committed Tsunku. First, several auditions would come, 9th gen's debut, Mobekimasu, and better songs all around.

-MM had Only You, Kono Chikyuu/Kare to Issho as very remarkable and very different songs, and 2 very good albums (12 smart being better), Maji desuka was good but not spectacular
-C-ute had their best song yet in Kiss Me Aishiteru imo, the rest were cutesy songs of mixed reception, but changed their usual "cool" style for those. Also ending 2010 we had Aitai lonely xmas.
-Berryz improved a lot on 2001, I found all their 2011 releases pretty good, and showed a different, more mature group (this brought controversy with old berryz fans)
-S/mileage had Shortcut, Uchouten Love and Please Miniskirt Postwoman as highlights. All of them pretty good.
-The mini album Partenza was also very different from usual and divided its fans. I personally think it's an amazing, if short album
-Mano Erina had only Seishun no Serenade and My Days for You. But both were very good singles.

__________________

Now I agree that marketing policies have to be changed this year, but musically I couldn't be happier. The upcoming singles from all groups and soloist are solid, specially Renai Hunter. But there's always room for improvement ofc.

Other idol groups are indeed outselling MM, but it's not related to musical quality at all. All these groups have the same idol/pop sound that's really hard to differentiate if you're not a fan, all sound way too similar. And talent is scarce as well, but in the idol world personality and looks are way more important (and if you don't have those, great marketing can make up for it). Momoiro Clover is a bit different (specially on their videos), but their choruses are the usual stuff. And they're awful singers as well (specially live), it's all about their otakuness I think.

AKB48 had 2011 as their most successful year ever, but musically I believe it was their weakest one yet. All songs were too similar to each other, having nothing new to offer and were unremarkable songs (Ue kara Mariko being the worst offender). None of them could compare to previous years' Heavy Rotation, Beginner, River, etc. But sales soared... (Give me Five is also too similar)

All this shows that music quality is of nigh importance, image and popularity is what matters. And UFA is failing at that, yeah. But to be honest, I doubt sales can go much higher anyway, people just don't care about them anymore, and go with what the media is telling them to. So complaining about sales is futile (not much in their control, really), about music quality... we can always discuss.

_________________

Just give em some time and you may like em, just try to be a little positive

[☆RisaReinaSayu☆]

^ Funny, I don't see what from any other idol group out there's song was better than AKB48's Everyday Kachuusha or Kaze wa Fuiteiru in 2011. Those were two very different songs of very different styles. Flying Get was also different. As was Ue Kara Mariko. Sakura no Ki ni Narou was of a lesser quality but the Sakura singles usually are. SKE48 and NMB48 also had some great songs last year. 2011 was a slow year for H!P all around. I firmly stand on the opinion that 12 Smart was a pathetic excuse for an album and is inferior to Fantasy Juuichi in every way. It's a group not a choppy batch of trios and duos Tsunku. And unlike Akimoto Yasushi you can't use the excuse that your group is too big for the who bunch to sing the songs on their albums (Granted the latter could easily take AKB48's present 4 teams and give them 3 songs each and compile that into a disc and release it as an album). The only good things from H!P last year were Only You and Kono/Kare. Everything else was just okay.

Quality is subjective to criticism and interpretation though so you saying other idol groups all sound the same is a lie (this is only the case for you and frankly it tells me you lack an open mind when it comes to music in general) just as much as me saying the opposite of what you say is a lie. And well its true all the promo in the world won't make a song sell if the majority of the listeners considers it bad. It helps to be the "in thing" b/c the hardcore fans will buy to support you no matter what. Contrary to popular belief though the hardcore fans only amount to 30 percent of your fan-base (and that might be stretching the figure).

Piracy doesn't help anyone nor does the cheaper option of a digital purchase. UFA doesn't want to play the incentives game so they're missing out on a lot of potential physical sales, but its not like they slay digitally either so we have to wonder what is it that keeps H!P down? It's not simply the popularity or subjectively superior quality of their competition's product. Every little thing that UFA decides to make a sub par effort on is a contributor to H!P's decline.

Also someone please tell me what's wrong with handshake events? That sort of thing can easily boost sales and make your fans feel more involved with you and rewarded for their support. It's a win/win so why not do it? I doubt it takes a lot of money to find a venue to hold a handshake event at. I don't see the point to signed poster events b/c of how much money is wasted on paper for the posters themselves. That's more like spending $5,000 to make back $3,500 if you're lucky since not everyone who gets what's needed for the event will come.

UFA shouldn't think their girls are so special their fans can't ever touch them. If you're so scared of a blow up at a handshake event hire some security. You'll still make more money than you would with a signed poster event. And why in the world would you as the management of such poorly grossing groups hold events sometimes instead of all the time. People already make comparisons between you and the competition. If you can't beat em join em.

[Helder Ribeiro]

I have to agree with RisaReinaSayu's point here...
This UFA tricks with nostalgia have failed so many times in so many ways that they should already get over with it.
Sometimes what makes me sad about H!P management is that it looks like they aren't even trying anymore (it's too much to ask back covers?) and became a bunch of lazy people without imagination... (look these damn "always-the-same" covers @_@... Stop with the remaking songs!!), but...

What can we do? Wish for the best, I guess?

I'm always cheering for new Stuff, so, when I was becoming bored of H!P last year the kyuukies, juukies and S/mileage new members gave a new flavor to the fandom and kept me with an eye on them!

I believe what make people angry (MADNESS) at this forum is when somebody says "everything sucks" or "everything is perfectly and amazing the way it is"
Let's just be real, we can still enjoy somethings here and there but the declining is crystal clear!

(and let's try to stay on topic, lol)

[Moondoggie]

H!P should have been gone 3 or 4 years ago and should be destroyed a year ago. UFA failed on so many things that it is uncountable. They failed on giving Linlin some lines who was easily a top 3 singer when she was in MM. The JJ+LL combo could have lit up the industry just like Two Top, but they didn't put them forward enough.

They would have NEVER "lit up the industry" they were not popular in Japan and the management never got what they wanted by including them, A lot of westerners appreciate them more than the Japanese ever did not sure exactly why probably because they were kinda funny and under appreciated by the Japanese fans so the westerners picked up on them (Western fans seem to love unpopular members) but it's the Japanese Wota who decide everything and that goes for all idol groups. They were not popular in Japan and didn't become big stars in the Chinese market which is what was planned so they were dropped pretty fast after that marketing experiment failed and probably their visas expired. No matter how many lines you gave any of them i doubt they'd ever become popular because simply they were Chinese and as such would never be considered better than a Japanese girl.

Tsunku's quality of songs are plummeting fast. I don't feel like he is trying anymore. They didn't adopt new releasing styles and all the other idols ran over them. Two ORIGINAL songs per single doesn't cut it anymore. And don't get me started on the lack of DVD content...

Really? Personally apart from a couple of hiccups lately i think the songs have improved, Lot's of idol groups still have two original songs per single and lots of J pop groups in general still use this format and sell just fine. "All the other idol groups" is kind of a silly statement since there are hundreds of idol groups these days many not doing as well as Morning Musume. Yes Morning Musume are selling a fraction of what the most popular idol groups (Most of which come from the same agency) are selling but compared to other idol groups on the market they are hardly scraping the bottom of the barrel.

As for Dream Morning Musume, my first thought was "What's the point?" Seriously, what is the point of putting everyone together again?

There were many old school fans who wished for it ever since they graduated off the elder club. Ask them what the point is.

Promotion is good, but it won't guarantee you sales. If the public don't care about the single, they don't care no matter how much you promote. Easiest way is a strong tie-up like CM or drama/anime. Most of H!P tie-ups have 90% of the casts as members and that is not good.

Note to all, Passpo, SUPER GiRLS, Idoling, AKB groups and many more are outselling H!P. And I'm pretty sure a years worth of single releases from H!P can't beat ONE single from SKE (let alone AKB...).

Many of the groups you mentioned only just recently started outselling H!P and not by a huge number. And not one of them sells anything compareable to SKE or AKB because nobody does. Even the other A list idol groups are selling about a quarter of what AKB sells right now and it was the same a decade ago when H!P had a grip on the market there always seems to be one dominant idol group that grip the whole market and everyone else has to just make do. So when AKB go on a decline as they are now hitting their peak so after this it's pretty much a slow decline and when they stop being the popular group will the fans be saying "oh they should just disband everything because it's not super popular anymore"?

[Marida]

Blah blah on the debate: I got my TWO copies of the single today and I'm super happy!!

But ok I have to admit, only 7000? Did everyone just download it illegally or settle for the youtube videos?

[scopefun]

I am an "old" fan of the DMM members and to say the truth, I didn't care much about this single.
I would go to see them for a concert but the nostalgia thing doesn't work anymore for buying a single.

I rather prefer supporting them in dramas, movies or stageplays.
But it seems they are not offered so much good opportunites these days.
(Talk about Nakazawa and Ishikawa in a Tsunku movie... hum, at least he still supports them)

I am not so surprised about bad sales, but that's a tiny number.

I think these girls are made for live stage.
Music, songs, play, musicals, TV shows, whatever but with audience !

I would like to see another Tsuri Deka with Ishikawa Rika, but diidn't hear of news about that.

Maybe I should give this song another chance...

[puffypancake]

I just got my copies in the mail! I didn't get them the first week of release though, they were bundled with some other items that came out later.

It's too bad it didn't sell too well but it seems a little early for the whole nostalgia factor to kick in anyway. I was on the upper age limit of the "youth" that would have been into Morning Musume during their big years and neither I nor my friends are really into the whole looking back on our youth kick yet. Maybe in a few more years once people start getting married and having kids and stuff like that.

I do like the single though but it hasn't stuck with me. Everytime it is on the ipod I have to look and see what song it is. That can't be good...

[SunshineSlayer]

I for one, love DMM. I love being able to see the older members and hear the older songs that don't get a lot of play these days in the current MM. It's also nice to know the older members have something to fall back on. I thought that Shining Butterfly had pretty decent TV promotion, but that is not enough these days to get you great sales. I live in Tokyo and did not see any kind of promotion in the train stations or out on the street. Also, the song itself just isn't that catchy; people love and remember MM for songs like Love Revolution etc. and I think that is the type of song people were hoping to hear. Dance Man is surely missed.

Anyways, my main point for posting in this thread is why does the title say "final" single? In all the recent appearances I have seen them in, they haven't given the impression that DMM is stopping activities after this at all.

[SI51]

Anyways, my main point for posting in this thread is why does the title say "final" single? In all the recent appearances I have seen them in, they haven't given the impression that DMM is stopping activities after this at all.

They have mentioned that they will cease activities. The Budokan Concert is also titled "End of First Chapter".

But much like the title implies, on their most recent "Pon!" appearance Nakazawa has stated that this is not the end of DMM, but a hiatus instead.




However, you have to wonder if they will ever comeback. That's probably up to UFA to decide. After the disappointing CD sales, and the fact that their Budokan Concert still haven't sold out yet (to my knowledge)... they may be deemed not profitable enough to warrant a return...

[Evangel]

If they return will be in november for the 15 bday of morning.