55119 replies to this topic

[Christien.Atkins]

Man i tell you this 15th Gen seems better and more attention in MV's or promotion material than 12,13 & 14th Gen's even though i wasn't there because i wasn't of MM or H!P 2014,2016 & 2017 but everyone or fan says there a failure all three Gen's are bland but not Maria or Miki but the rest are like bland characters in a tv show not interesting and not that much attention in MV's or promotion material but everyone or fans says 15th Gen is a very big improvement over them they have personality's not bland and interesting

[rurupedia]

yeah its not really my place to say since i literally just got here but i feel like the reason why ppl didnt really like 12ki (and kinda sorta maybe 13ki but also not really) is because they feel so.... corporate? idk if that's a good word for it. manufactured might be better, but as in more manufactured than usual for idols if that makes sense. idk it just feels like the girls were picked based on a checklist, like that they're all pretty, they're cute, one can sing, one can kinda dance, that's it. oh and +1 if one of them kinda looks like a past member (akane/sayumi). it feels like they were picked based on marketability and it's why many people haven't really connected with the gen and think they're just pretty filler girls. ofc i disagree with the last sentence bc they're one of my favorite gens but also i can see why a lot of ppl think they're boring or whatever. idk how much tsunku was involved with 12ki but it does feel like there's less heart in this gen than past gens kinda? idk, imo it was a huge stumble for the first mm audition without tsunku (or at least without his usual level of involvement) but i think they finally got it right with 15ki

[Christien.Atkins]

i can agree with you Yuripop when i was studying MM and H!P this year i reading some articles or pages about 12th Gen a lot of people or fans said they were happy at first but by the end they were disappointed and when i read something about 13th Gen people or fans were even more disappointed at the fact that there wasn't really nothing special one fans said 12 and 13th are the same thing both are the worst gen's for the group itself and 14th Gen well Many fans said it was very unnecessary to have a Country Girls member rather than having a completely new member and it was 20th Annivrsary however for the 15th Gen everyone said wow they are amazing they get more attention they have actual personalities i was confused until i realized what they met in MV's or promotional material have of the members get lines.

[Nayok-Kihara]

My memory of 13th gen is of them being generally well received though? I remember people were disappointed that the two runs of the audition failed to find any off-the-street girls and that there were only Kenshuusei additions because of that, but I don't remember a higher than usual amount of negativity surrounding them as a generation otherwise.

[Verilian]

I don't know if I'd say gens 12-14 were failures, and I recall them being received OK when they debuted, but it feels like the excitement died down really soon after and then they were just pushed to the back. And it seems that of those 7 girls only Kaga and Maria really ever caught on and neither of them are front girls now, years later, compared with gen 9-11 that had girls who were pushed to the front soon after they joined.

 

But it seems like fans are still excited for 15ki, and all the members seem pretty well-received. They seem to stand out more with personality, and imo their performance level is better out of the gate than the previous 3 generations as well, and it seems like management also wants to push them.

 

I wouldn't say that gens 12-14 were the worst additions to MM ever, but they were just not as exciting. I'm glad we have 15ki now.

[rurupedia]

yeah honestly 12ki was just really mismanaged which is annoying. i'm sure they would've been more successful if they weren't immediately shoved in the back for their debut, it's not like they're completely devoid of any talent so idk why that happened. and honestly idk what's still keeping them in the back now, i mean i kinda get akane since she's pretty unpopular (and kinda miki but idk how popular she is) but maria seems to be really popular, bad singing never stopped riho from being pushed so idk what's stopping them here. maria does get centers occasionally but she never really gets solos so idk it's just weird to me

[Verilian]

They're just...really stuck on Mizuki/Sakura/Masaki, who've had time to get an established fanbase, and are popular and stable singers. To be honest most of the solo lines go to Mizuki and Sakura, who are the stablest singers in the group--it's kind of always been that way since the Platinum Era though. They're just the new Ai-Reina. Riho wasn't the best singer but she was incredibly popular--honestly I don't think any addition to MM since Riho has been as popular as she was (like OK Masaki is popular but I get the feeling she's more of an idol's idol whereas Riho appealed to a general audience), and imo she was a bit of an odd one out as a front singer because for most of MM history since I remember (which is like...2005) they've basically always had really skewed line distribution, going to the two-three best singers, with maybe a few other girls who get the odd solo line here and there.

 

I kind of hope having 15ki around will change that but I'm not holding my breath.

[rurupedia]

yeah, it won't change until they graduate (or at least one of them) which kinda sucks but it's just how the group works. ngl it doesn't bother me THAT much but i wish they did it like anju where they focus on different members in each a-side, the last single did this really well so i hope they keep doing it but i doubt it

[Touki]

Let's see how the next single turns out. However, from what I've seen, 15th gen is the only exception.

 

First, the manager allows Panda-san's character. Based on what I'd observed , the manager seemed to be very skeptical about idols having characters. For instance, Maro used to have "Cinderella" act, but was told to drop even by Tsunku. It would have been better if they told her to build that character better. I don't know if there were other members who experienced things like that, but I guess that Eripon, Manakan, Funakki and Yanamin also had the same problem. There were only 2 members that received "passed" stamp: Momochi and Sayu. Therefore, I don't know if the manager is serious promoting Mei's character, because if they don't, she will be told to drop that character a few years later, no sweat. I hope that the manager can guide her to be like Momochi or Sayu, since MM really lacks this thing recently. In the Golden Era, we see Charmy, Marippe, Nono, Aibon everywhere on TV shows. Then in the Platinum and Colorful Era, we have only Sayu. Right now, counting Mei-chan out, there are nobody who fulfills that.

 

Second, I think On-chan has a potential to play a hybrid "vocal-visual" role. She's quite near to Riho's position. Sakura, Fuku-chan, Ayumin and Maa-chan are featured a lot, but all of them lack "ace" character. Maria Love-rin has a potential to become an "ace", but she lacks singing skills. I don't have enough data, but if On-chan is featured more than 12th, 13th and 14th gen in the future, there's a hope that she is near to the "ace" position (IMO, I don't want her to be Riho 2.0 because of you-know-what consequences). It's because she loses to Maria in terms of visual position but has singing skills, while not being as good as main members in terms of singing but winning visual category (except Fuku-chan)

 

However, Homa-tan is an unusual case. Only if she has instantly good single skills is it easier to guess what will happen to her. If the manager is generous, they will put Homa-tan in the main position of formation dance. Her dancing skill is only behind Ayumin and Chii-chan IMO, despite being newbies. Question is, will she be pushed to the front, or will she be Chii-chan 2.0?

 

In overall, I think 15th gen is really awesome. However, I think the manager should never do the same thing to this gen as they did to other gen.

[Satur]

 A difference is also that when 9th and 10th Generations joints, the group was really small and the graduations of previous members were near in time. When 12 to 14 generations joins we all knew there still a long career in the group for elder members like PonPon or Ayumi. That's why the newest members must had patience before going to first line.

[Juandalyn]

People always need underdogs to blame. In the past it was 8th gen as well, and before that 5th gen of all generations.

But the common part is always that those generations pretty much suffered in the shadows of their older group members. Only 5th gen broke out so far, but to do so they had to stay in the group for 10 years.

 

In fact I think there are quite the similarities between 5th and 12th gen

Makoto and Oharu were the funny ones, and while Makoto was a much better singer than Oharu they both didn't get anywhere in MM.

Konkon and Maria are popular, mostly due to visuals/character. Neither is a great singer. But wota love them.

 

While Miki isn't really like Ai and Akane isn't really like Gaki I can see similarities even there: Miki is a decent singer and Akane is the underdog.

[Christien.Atkins]

when i was talking about the article i read about 14th Gen was it unnecessary to have a Country Girls members rather than a new member

[Touki]

when i was talking about the article i read about 14th Gen was it unnecessary to have a Country Girls members rather than a new member

 

Technically, it was unnecessary to have a Country Girls member for 14th gen.

 

However, I think it was necessary to maintain Country Girls members' full time status based on one fact: Yamaki Risa and Ozeki Mai wanted to work part-time, whereas other members didn't. I guess it's unlawful to demote other members from full-time status to part-time status, and there were only 3 members working routinely. UFP would have violated the contract had they done so, and members could sue the company for that.

 

Analogously, people thought it was unnecessary to add Reirei to J=J because there are good vocalists already: Karin, Sayubee, KNTM, Ruru, Riai, and maybe Tako. However, I think UFP still granted Reirei's wish of working because KF was disbanded due not to her fault at all.

 

In conclusion, I think a point of adding Chii-chan to MM was to maintain her full-time status because otherwise, she had to work part-time due to Risa and Mai's requests.

[Christien.Atkins]

 

when i was talking about the article i read about 14th Gen was it unnecessary to have a Country Girls members rather than a new member

 

Technically, it was unnecessary to have a Country Girls member for 14th gen.

 

However, I think it was necessary to maintain Country Girls members' full time status based on one fact: Yamaki Risa and Ozeki Mai wanted to work part-time, whereas other members didn't. I guess it's unlawful to demote other members from full-time status to part-time status, and there were only 3 members working routinely. UFP would have violated the contract had they done so, and members could sue the company for that.

 

Analogously, people thought it was unnecessary to add Reirei to J=J because there are good vocalists already: Karin, Sayubee, KNTM, Ruru, Riai, and maybe Tako. However, I think UFP still granted Reirei's wish of working because KF was disbanded due not to her fault at all.

 

In conclusion, I think a point of adding Chii-chan to MM was to maintain her full-time status because otherwise, she had to work part-time due to Risa and Mai's requests.

 

Hey at least it came in handy because Country Girls disbanded Morito Chisaki is still in H!P

so the reason for why 12 13 and 14th Gen fail because Tsunku wasn't involved

[rurupedia]

i don't think it was necessarily because of tsunku's lack of involvement, more just poor management of the new girls and maybe even poor choice of members. the latter could've been worked around if they were actually promoted and not shoved in the back for/after their debut but unfortunately that's not what happened for either gen (i dont really count chiichan since her first 3 singles were all grad singles and she had to wait like 2 years for her spotlight but so far it doesn't look good for her either. then again i think her lack of lines in the last single was because of vocal nodules so hopefully it's temporary). though they're starting to get more solos now (specifically 13ki but also recently miki, with crumbs for the rest of 12ki lol) i kinda think the damage is already done for 12ki and they def won't be more popular than they already are (unless one of them pulls a sayu and makes a character or something), 13/14ki have more of a chance tho since they're more recent (especially chiichan since shes already popular from cg)

 

i'm probably wrong on all of this tho, as much as i consume information like a vacuum idk for sure what happened so like don't take my word for it lol

[Juandalyn]

12th gen was unlucky in several parts:

 

- Their first audition failed so people already had high hopes for the 2nd audition finalists.

- Back when they joined the group was still going strong and in no need for an ace because Riho was there - but she graduated suddenly and it took some time until Mizuki and Masaki were ready to step up. In that time there was no chance to give 12th gen some proper introduction, and it became apparent that none of them was real ace material - simply because they weren't looking for an ace during the auditions.

- They came after the strong 9th, 10th and 11th generations and of those there were some long time members. It's difficult to get in front of them and they couldn't fill spots that were left, because those spots were filled with other older members (Mizuki and Masaki taking up Riho's roles).

 

I still don't think 13th gen was a failed generation. Kaede is just starting to become really popular and pushed and Yokoyan has always been pushed to a mid-position. They were in no position like Ikuta, Kanon, Harunan, Oharu or Akane.

 

To those that don't like 14th gen adding Chisaki was a bad marketing move. Those that like her are glad that such a cute girl that is talented at dancing joined the group. She's pretty popular with the wota, too, so she is in no way a failed generation.

 

Tsunku didn't have the final pick since, I don't know, 4th generation. He could always suggest members, but that's it.

[Christien.Atkins]

Haga Kaga Haruna Reina and Morito were unpopular at the time

[celestia414]

Chisaki has always been popular with the wota due to her pale complexion and general cuteness.  For 13th gen, Kaede is definitely upcoming in popularity as well, probably more for personality reasons. 

 

The harsh truth about 12th gen? Maria has done all right for her stand-out looks and modeling despite being a bad singer. Miki hasn’t done that well because the wota don’t find her very pretty or having a stand out personality. She’s a decent singer, but not good enough to push her to lead vocalist. Haruna had dual problems of being a truly awful singer + not a great dancer and also her weight yo-yoing all over the place from normal to frighteningly skinny to kind of chubby, which detracted from her visual appeal (I know she was struggling with it, but visuals is the single biggest factor in idol success).  Akane, in addition to being a sub-par singer and dancer became “the fat one” in the group after Zukki graduated which, again, usually causes wota to flee. Not saying that it is right or good, but the Japanese fans have some really narrow definitions of what an “acceptable” body type for an idol is. An idol needs some amazing other attributes (like Aibons personality and voice) for a less than perfect figure to be overlooked. 

 

Im not saying being “pushed to the back” didn’t hurt them, but there are logical reasons they were pushed back. Management simply had more marketable options available to them. They were given some chances here and there (spoken lines in oh my wish and jama shinaide, Maria’s center song and inheriting some of Sayus parts, Miki’s part in Ima Tsugu and rap in jealousy)

[Touki]

I think the problem is that the members are restrained too much. 48 groups' success is stable because recently Yasushi Akimoto doesn't involve directly in managing the groups as much as before. He lets veteran members such as Sasshi, Yukirin, etc. rampage more (of course with reliable managers). Some of 48 members even involve in managements and suggestions for the groups they're in (Sasshi of HKT48 is a typical one).

 

Therefore, I think less involvement of Tsunku doesn't change things, and I even think that if he influences the current groups too much, H!P will lack diversity and be outdated. The problem is that UFP manager doesn't let members actively involve in building idol images of their own. It's time to give them more opportunities. After years becoming H!P fans and seeing 2020 Solo Fes and 2018 Uta Gassen, I found lots of prominent members who can actively establish their pathways as idols: Maa-chan, Chel, Panda-chan, Karin, Kawamuu, Funakki, Kishimon, Kurumin, Momohime, etc. Also, I don't think that 12th - 14th gen is bad, but it's time to let them show us who is Kaedy, who is Yokochan, who is Chii-chan, etc.

[rurupedia]

yeah what i've noticed the most is that a lot of the girls (mostly recent gens/members) are usually restricted to the same kind quiet personality type, and while i'm sure that's some of their actual personalities i also feel like a lot of them are being held back (or holding themselves back) from really expressing themselves or creating a character of some sort. meichan already has her panda character but i'm scared she'll be told to tone it down, which honestly makes no sense unless they just wanna put her in the back as filler or something. idk it's just so weird to me how the girls basically aren't allowed to create characters, or when they do they get told to stop it. really the only reason i see in this is to keep pushing the same popular members, but even that doesn't make sense because if those members graduate you're left with girls that fans don't know anything about outside of their generic personalities and existing skills/talents. i mean i'd argue 12ki have their own quirks but they still have the same archetype of the quiet schoolgirl type (well not really schoolgirl except maybe akanechin at the moment but like, u know what i mean), and if this keeps happening with future members idk what would really bring in new fans besides super talented cute girls (and a lot of h!p is already talented which i appreciate, but i don't think talent alone is enough for people to connect with an idol most of the time). though on the bright side, i don't think this is happening with beyooooonds as they all have their own established characters and personalities (like their idol selves not their megane characters lol) so i hope that continues in the other groups

 

tl;dr h!p needs more weird personalities cuz maachan and beyooooonds can't carry it themselves lmao