^ Everyone takes pride in their faves, they just wanna see them do well, it's pretty simple actually if someone feels sad at their faves lack of popularity it has to do with a disappointment that people aren't seeing what they are seeing.
Maybe it's just me then lol. Cause posts saying: "Let's see how well I did" "not bad" or "fairly bad", it just seems strange to me like if they were doing a test. For me, that is something that doesn't matter. But it is as if people were hoping all of their favorites would be the same as everyone else's, then we return back to Fallacia's post on that. I kind of wonder if there was anyone that felt that they did "really good" with their choices, but would that change anything about how you feel about your favorites if it is too different or too similar to the overall score? Sure, I'm probably just thinking too much about this and I probably wont really find the answer I'm looking for, or I'm not conveying my thoughts well enough. But I appreciate the responses.
So we have:
Best Idol Group
Best Singer
Best Dancer
Best Newcomer
Idol you want to push
I wonder if Best Idol Group is still necessary, I don't think Morning Musume is ever going to lose lol and that it is super predictable, do we want to take another look at that category?
Best Singer and Best Dancer should be ok. Even though best dancer is really just a battle between Ayumi and Manaka. And best singer had the same top 3 again but we can't blame them for being the most talented since those are pretty important categories.
I guess Best Newcomer can stay since there is enough debuts to create enough competition for that category. I also like Idol You Want to Push since that is an easy category to vote in, cause there is always that one member that makes you go, "she deserves more".
Well, I hope that we can add more categories, I don't think it would devalue the H!O General Election too much. Did we have more people vote this time? If so, that is a good sign that we could add more categories.
Morning Musume ~~~~~ Angerme ~~~~~ Kobushi Factory ~~~~~ Tsubaki Factory ~~~~~ Juice = Juice ~~~~~ CHICA#TETSU ~~~~~ RFRO~~~~~~ Kenshuusei
^ I have an important point to make about the "Best group" category. We presented the results differently from last time because what's interesting isn't much who comes first (we all know Morning Musume will always come at the top) but the relative numbers of each group compared to one another and to themselves on previous polls. In a way, it's an annual poll measuring the popularity of each group. Just to illustrate my point, I'm going to do an analysis from the results of the "Best group" category:
Spoiler
Just a reminder of the results:
2016
2017
Morning Musume
39.4%
42.5%
Juice=Juice
4.4%
15.9%
Angerme
19.5%
14.5%
°C-ute
19.0%
11.7%
Tsubaki Factory
0.4%
9.8%
Kobushi Factory
10.2%
2.3%
Country Girls
6.2%
2.3%
Buono!
0.9%
0.9%
(sorry, I'm using my H!P group colour-coding)
If you look at who are the winners and who are the losers from 2016, then no surprise: Juice=Juice, Tsubaki Factory, Morning Musume are up, Angerme, °C-ute, Kobushi Factory and Country Girls are down. That Kobushi drop though surprised me. They really are at the same level as Country Girls, that's something to note. Tsubaki Factory at around the same level where Kobushi were last year, they like almost replaced Kobushi as the "new fresh" group. Angerme down, but not that much down, I think these 14.5% are their base of support, which is good for a non-Morning Musume group. I also read comments like: "yeah there are complete Morning Musume-centric wota here who'll only vote for them", yeah I've seen some, but as you can see here, their position is far from being outrageously dominant in H!P (that's still less than half of the people). Of course, another thing to note is Juice=Juice now being the 2nd group of H!P.
So yeah, even if the top spot stays the same, there are still interesting things to learn from this poll.
And unfortunately, no, there were less votes than last time, although not by much (226 in 2016 and 218 in 2017). I took the Japanese point of view as a point of view from complete strangers from H!O: they really focus on Best Idol and Best Group, they aren't talking much about the rest. I think we should stay as easy to understand as possible for strangers and also for H!O newcomers. Plus, as I said, you'd have to think of categories where enough people would vote.
End-of-the-year polls are now closed! Results on the links below:
Kasahara Momona deserves 3 new modeling jobs weekly
Senpai
4024 posts
Posted 02 January 2018 - 11:44 PM
^
^
No we had less people vote this year. Not many but yea....H!O doesn't have as many people anymore. Probably because of the tracker gone.
Anyway I think you are right that the most unexciting category is most popular group.
The best performer category is imo the best and most interesting one. Just because Maa-chan is considered a good performer and on top of that wins the best idol category doesn't mean that this happens all of the time. Also last year only the first 3 spots were revealed when in reality the other ranks are just as interesting. Do you guys still have the complete results of best performer of last year? By the theory that people are too biased and vote blindly for their fav member anyway we should see nearly only top10 member getting in that category right?
Last year many people voted for Maa-chan or Murotan there even though they weren't even close to their +10 member.
Best Singer and best dancer are just as complex categories as best performer. A singer needs e.g. not only the ability to hit notes but also the rhythm, the voice control and lung capacity to hold notes, it's about the range of notes a singer is able to hit safely and so on. Still lots of people vote normally for what voice they like to hear the most. So I don't really get why best performer should be too complex for ppl to make a more unbiased vote when in reality best performer is probably the one normal people like us on here can judge the best choosing between dancer, singer and performer. Because being a good performer has something to do with emotional response at least.
Do you guys really think Sayumi would have won that category 4 years ago simply because she was on top of best idol?
The reason why this category is so important for me is because H!P is mostly about performance nowadays. So lots of people show with that vote who might rank up in the future. Places 1 to 3 might still be about people from the top10 best idol. But afterwards it might be about looking at people that might climb to the top as fan favorites in the future. So I have huge interest in that category statistics wise. And if you still have the full results of that category from last year please consider sharing it.
C-ute was still an active group for half of 2017, and I voted them as best group because they're my fav group and I got to see them live this, I mean last year. If you're gonna exclude them from the results then by that logic all the other graduates should be excluded.. They were elligible in the Japanese poll too.
^ no, I'm not going to exclude them from the results, the results have already been published. You know, I've seen them live last year also. I'm just doing my own research; I may have phrased it the wrong way, what I was asking was more like: now that °C-ute is gone, who's your favorite group in H!P?
End-of-the-year polls are now closed! Results on the links below:
I looked back at the 2016 results and here's the stats:
I'm displaying the number of "Best Performer" votes according to the number of points the idol was given in the "Best Idol" poll.
Points
Users
10
80
9
23
8
17
7
14
6
12
5
8
4
6
3
4
2
1
1
3
0
57
I understand what you're saying, but there's not enough votes to make the best performer ranking beyond top 3 relevant. Like the idol you want to push this year, the votes were more split than for the other categories. The results were:
I see, so we have keep things enticing without doing too much. Still, more than 40% people contributed to the Best Performer category and last year it created discussions in several topics which I think is a pretty important thing.
Morning Musume ~~~~~ Angerme ~~~~~ Kobushi Factory ~~~~~ Tsubaki Factory ~~~~~ Juice = Juice ~~~~~ CHICA#TETSU ~~~~~ RFRO~~~~~~ Kenshuusei
Kasahara Momona deserves 3 new modeling jobs weekly
Senpai
4024 posts
Posted 03 January 2018 - 01:21 AM
^
^
Thanks for displaying the complete results. Well to what I would like to deduct from this category it would probably be better to ask for the best performer of each group but that would be too complex to realize with this poll I suppose. I'm going to think a little more wether there is an easy way for everyone to answer that question but get clearer results still.
^
I just counted everything together quite wiúfickly but actually everyone except one user that voted for best idol voted for best performer or did I misunderstand the data?
I would take away the Idol you want to push category. The votes are even more split than the Best Performer category (which I vote Yes, btw, but I can understand why it would be a bit pointless as well).
^ for the other polls, you'll have to ask the people in charge of them, well maybe we could make a united front on that matter.
the problem with a single vote would be that we wouldn't have any clear ranking below the top 10, because there aren't enough voters like in the Japanese poll. And you know, apart from the top 10 idols, the other rankings are also interesting. What we could do is doing a bit like the Japanese do for the song vote:
You have 10 points to give to 5 idols. You have to give all your 10 points and to exactly 5 idols. The points you give must be multiples of 1/2 points.
For example, in your case, your vote would probably look like that:
Oda Sakura 8pts
****** ****** 0.5pt
****** ****** 0.5pt
****** ****** 0.5pt
****** ****** 0.5pt
On the contrary, if you have a top 5 in which you can't decide who's on top, then you could do something like this:
****** ****** 2pts
****** ****** 2pts
****** ****** 2pts
****** ****** 2pts
****** ****** 2pts
If we adopted this vote, I'd rather give 20 points and make all the points integers. I'm not fond of these half points. (nothing changes in the end though) Because, yeah, in the end, you're right, with this voting system, we don't make any difference between someone whi clearly has a kamioshi, and someone who's more like a DD (I'm personally in between).
I didn't vote in the best MV vote as with these digital releases, MVs can sometimes not be open unless you buy it. The concept of a "single" tends to be more and more fluid. That's for my two cents.
End-of-the-year polls are now closed! Results on the links below:
I feel this kinda category list would best encompass what this kinda election shows
Best Idol = more-or-less the fan's oshi. However they feel about the idol's individual skill points in other categories simply isn't more than correlation for most; unless they're fans of who's the best at something. I also believe this should be the only category in which we technically are voting for more than just the idol we think is the "absolute" best.
An idol is good at least one of the following: Voice, Dance, Character. If we categorize them, it's be Best Singer, Best Dancer, and Best Performer. It's really important to consider the "other" that makes the idol shine beyond whether they can sing and/or dance well. Sure we fans who don't normally see the girls perform live, communicate with them at events, understand them on shows, etc etc might be biased towards Stage Performance alone ... but all the same, "Best Performer" is a more fair category and helps better paint a picture of how the fandom thinks
Best KSS = this removes KSS from the overall Best Idol ranking. A KSS is not a debuted member, nor a soon-to-debut member even with their chances for an H!P debut being tons higher than it used to. So all other categories would truly be H!P-only and then fans who pay more attention to KSS would better be able to show their love through a more focused category. For KSS not voted for, they simply wouldn't be ranked. And while I suspect there would be more sporadic single votes, I also suspect (more) fans would skip it if they don't care enough.
Hidden Gem = Best Newcomer is actually a redundant category to have. With Hidden Gem, it's basically along the lines of "the idol you feel has the talent to be big, etc, if given the chance". Meaning it's a great category for Newcomers; many who lack the skillset to compete with senior members. And then the overall Best Idol ranking, as proven, shows whether they're actually starting high in popularity or not to be considered the "best" at being new and promising. It'd also simply be more fair to idols like Kurumin and Momohime who ain't planned to debut like Ichioka will be, yet all the same they ain't KSS.
Best Group = Kept more as a "side-vote" in which we compare how a group does in popularity against its previous year's results. Plus we can tell which group's popular through the Best Idol rankings. I don't really mind whether this category is included or not tho - even were Momusu not undefeated champion. It just feels harder to simplify the vote as either "vote your fave" or "vote who's more solid" without breaking it up like with the individual idol categories.
===
If you voted for °C-ute or Buono! as your best group in 2017, could you tell me for which group you would have voted for if they weren't eligible? "I wouldn't have voted for any group" is also an option. I think we'd have a better understanding of how H!P is structured today. The point of this isn't to exclude °C-ute. The result of the group vote is the result for all of 2017, in half of which °C-ute was still there, and that won't change anything. What I'd like to understand is how the groups are faring as of now, or in short, where did °C-ute fans go?
Were ℃-ute not a contender for the 2017 elections:
Best Group: Country Girls
Best Singer: Hirose Ayaka (KF)
I mean, for the most-part I just wanted to vote for ℃-ute one last time anyway loll
I am very likely to write something confusing, so I apologize in advanced if you get confused~
Best Group = Kept more as a "side-vote" in which we compare how a group does in popularity against its previous year's results. Plus we can tell which group's popular through the Best Idol rankings. I don't really mind whether this category is included or not tho - even were Momusu not undefeated champion.
That's not necessarily true. For example you couldn't see Tsubaki Factory's popularity very well. Sure they improved a bit but they're still pretty low in the Best Idol category. The best group category is a better indicator of how the group's faring, which is pretty well. You can't see the difference between Tsubaki and, say, Kobushi that well in the Idol poll, while it's blatanly obvious in the group poll. I think that may be because Tsubaki Factory has been doing well as a group with its cohesion (and great songs) rather than as a group with one or two aces in the front.* So that's the first point.
The second point is that as long as we allow voting for more than one member on the best idol category, that vote will be biased towards groups with more members. I can't be too specific without going too much into details, but the structure of the voting system itself makes it that way. Plus, if you go to the Japanese discussion, the group poll has been broadly discussed, even more than best singer, best dancer, best newcomer and hidden gem categories together.
In the end, I think this is just a matter of emphasizing idols or groups. I think there are a lot of people who emphasize idols. But I personally emphasize groups rather than idols.
I also think that a lot of people understood "best performer" as "best stage performer", but still.
*I remember adding that was a reason why I didn't like Last Idol's concept, because an idol group is more than putting a bunch of girls together; it's also how they manage to work as a group. But that's a bit off-topic.
End-of-the-year polls are now closed! Results on the links below:
I'm fully on-board with a favorite KSS category. Around 21% of the people that voted this time had a KSS in their top 10. I gave points to Yuhane and gave Kirara my push vote even though she wasn't in my top 10, so I can imagine that among those that didn't vote for a KSS, a significant enough number of them may also have a preference for a KSS that didn't quite make it into their list and the others can opt out since the categories are optional. In the case of this year's poll, I imagine that favorite KSS would have likely been Yuhane since she scored so high compared to the others, but like the best group category, it would be a much better look overall at where the KSS stand rather than just finding the most popular member. It would also correct one of the biggest flaws in the current Top Idol methodology where the lower half of the list is entirely too much of a mess to be accurate, and we'd have a much better idea about the popularity of the KSS rather than having half of them tied at 0 or 1 point, including many that often top the "Which Kenshuusei..." board.
I'm fairly ambivalent towards the top performer category. It paints a picture, but I'm not necessarily convinced of how useful that data is compared to the other categories. If offered in a poll, I'd vote to keep it for the same reason that I like Best Group, more because I like seeing the overall data rather than because I'm particularly attached to the idea of a winner. Interestingly, unlike last year where Maa-chan was my top idol and top performer, I would have probably voted for Uemura Akari, who didn't get any points in any other category from me.
If we adopted this vote, I'd rather give 20 points and make all the points integers. I'm not fond of these half points. (nothing changes in the end though) Because, yeah, in the end, you're right, with this voting system, we don't make any difference between someone whi clearly has a kamioshi, and someone who's more like a DD (I'm personally in between).
The only problem I have with the concept of splitting votes is that we do have so many fewer users voting than the Japanese polls. As it is, every user that does vote is accountable for 55 points. If we were to limit them to even an increased 20 points across 10 members, that would mean that the most someone could do if they did give +10 to their kamioshi is to give 1 point to everyone else with no real way for that person to further rank their periphery preferences if we're sticking to integers. If we had thousands of users voting, this would be fine since the voting pool would be significant enough that we'd still get more accurate results on those non-MM favorites. With only ~200 people though, we'd probably need to give everyone 100 points to spend across a mandatory 10 members and place some kind of arbitrary cap like 25 for one member so that one user can't sway the vote by a significant amount. At that point though, it becomes more complicated to both count and vote, which would likely lead to more errors and fewer voters. It would be a great way to determine how many people are absolutely fanatical about (Maa-chan) their favorite, but not necessarily representative of how popular those members are, as evidenced by Miki's rise even with only five +10 votes. It would also make anything beyond the top 5 far less accurate, compared to the current methodology where things start to fall apart after 25th place, and just lead to Maa-chan having over a thousand more points than second place rather than 282 since she is also the +10 winner by a significant margin. She's my favorite as well, but being able to give her 10x more points than everyone else doesn't make for very accurate overall results.
Rather than giving people more points for their top 10 or letting them distribute points among them, there are a couple of changes I can think of that might make the results more accurate for the current voting pool. The first, I think I suggested last year, was an arbitrary increase in the number of slots allowed for top idol with the appropriately increased +11, +12, etc depending on how far the list is expanded. The second, and this is the one I think I favor this time around, is keeping the mandatory top 10 as it is, but optionally allowing people to expand their list to a top 20 where anyone after the top 10 also only gets 1 point each.
The first 10 being mandatory keeps the top of the list fairly accurate as it is now, but the addition of the extra 10 optional slots would make the rest of the list far more accurate as well, including the chaos zone after the top 25. For example:
Spoiler
Top Idol (Please use all 10):
+10 Sato Masaki
+9 Oda Sakura
+8 Nonaka Miki
+7 Inoue Rei
+6 Funaki Musubu
+5 Murota Mizuki
+4 Yamazaki Yuhane
+3 Ichioka Reina
+2 Danbara Ruru
+1 Kawamura Ayano
Top Optional (+1 to each, in no particular order):
1. Katsuta Rina
2. Asakura Kiki
3. Nakanishi Kana
4. Yonemura Kirara
5. Kiyono Momohime
6. Yanagawa Nanami
7. Inoue Hikaru
8.
9.
10.
Categories (Optional):
Best Idol Group: Morning Musume '18
Best Newcomer: Yamazaki Yuhane
Best Singer: Takagi Sayuki
Best Dancer: Murota Mizuki
Best KSS: Kubota Nanami
My actual list would be full to all 10, but this is an example of how someone could just stop wherever their interest ends.
^Lol, I had that suggestion last year, the problem with that is people that can barely have 10 favorites or they just only follow one group. I think that were the reasons why it is better to have only up to 10 choices even though I too would like to have a choice of 20 members.
Morning Musume ~~~~~ Angerme ~~~~~ Kobushi Factory ~~~~~ Tsubaki Factory ~~~~~ Juice = Juice ~~~~~ CHICA#TETSU ~~~~~ RFRO~~~~~~ Kenshuusei
Anything after the top 10 could be optional so that those who don't follow many groups can just name those they do know, as with the example I gave in the spoiler of my previous post. That would probably be the easiest way to do it without making the voting process too complicated or wearisome for both voters and counters since it's an opt-in and anyone after the top 10 is just a +1.
I personally love this proposal! In polls like this if you have a few more faves than limit it can feel a bit sad. I'm all for it as long if it doesn't cause any complications for anyone.
I didn't vote in this, hope it's okay to give my 2 cents for the 2018 poll. I support adding a Favorite Kenshuusei category, for all the reasons listed above. This may just be my bias as a kenshuusei fan but the kenshuusei are such a formidable part of H!P and many people are fond of them so it would be nice to have a category for the sake of accuracy.
I may have some problems with the idea of adding optional +1:
1) That makes it harder for me to count, but I think not that hard, so that's not a valid argument.
2) It's making votes unequal. If you only have a top 10, you would give 55 points, if you have a top 20, you would give 65 points. That may be unfair to new fans who couldn't choose a top 20.
Oh, and what I had in mind was giving 20 points to 5 idols instead of 10.
End-of-the-year polls are now closed! Results on the links below:
Can we also think about adding a 'Most Improved Idol' category? I may think one girl is 'better' than another girl in certain areas, but there is also the possibility that the second girl made a dramatic improvement over the course of the year, so I think it should also be rewarded.
if someone feels sad at their faves lack of popularity it has to do with a disappointment that people aren't seeing what they are seeing.
