31 replies to this topic

[Kuraudo17]

Is everything really for show? Even birthday surprise reactions? Do we ever see idols in their "natural" state?

[Ribon]

Budokan is a drama; a show. Everything is scripted and rehearsed.

[Kuraudo17]

Of course it is. I'm talking about how it portrays idols.

[Lurkette]

Idols are, shall we say, an enhanced version of reality. Their public personas aren't totally disconnected from who they are as people, but their traits are amplified several times of what they are normally and some thoughts and emotions are suppressed so as not to break the illusion that they have built up. You can see this when a totally new idol reacts to something versus a more seasoned idol reacts to something. The new idol has a tepid reaction, which may be very natural but is also pretty underwhelming and boring. The seasoned idol is over-the-top, very loud, and while it's definitely not 100% real, it's much more entertaining.

 

In any case, the fakeness (if you see it as such) is to protect both the idol and the fans. The idol doesn't feel quite so exposed by having hundreds, if not thousands of people know her on a deep, personal level, and the fans don't get exposed to the more negative perceptions of humankind, since idols are intended to be a fairly lighthearted distraction from such things.

[iwabo]

As it is most of the time around here: What Lurkette said. But I feel like elaborating on one part a bit.

 

 

Do we ever see idols in their "natural" state?

 

Depends on how you define "natural" state. For example most people will behave very differently when they are alone in a room compared to being in that same room with someone else, whether it's a stranger or a friend / family. Even with non-idols it's very hard to get to truly know people depending on how much of them they want to show to you. So in general, as was said, reactions are amplified. Imagine a girl getting a surprise birthday cake, and her reaction is just a smile and her saying she is thankful. Many people would consider seeing this (from an idol) as a rather cold reaction. Of course nowadays there are different types of idols (not to mention anti-idols) who found an audience who like exactly that. But I'm going off-track now. They will always put on some kind of show as this is their job, but it's not like they are acting to be someone completely different from their real self. Just like everyone else, you want to show your good sides to people, be a motivation to others.

 

TLDR: They are just as "real / fake" as everyone else you know, just with some amplification here and there.

[Juandalyn]

Rule of thumb is, an idol is a piece of art. Art is, well, artificial.

There are some idols that are more "natural" than others, but if you don't want to be disappointed it's better to take everything they say or do with a grain of salt.

[Kuraudo17]

Art is a very unique way of putting it, because people from the outside looking in think they're just fabricated pop idols.

the fans don't get exposed to the more negative perceptions of humankind, since idols are intended to be a fairly lighthearted distraction from such things.

This must be a hard realization for these girls. No wonder idols are shown in films about them to be depressed and isolated.

[Kinjiru]

Idols enhance positive aspects and suppress negative ones to show themselves in their best light; this is exactly what normal people do in public settings and it's by no means being fake. This, however, describes the average H!P member since they show a lot of their actual personality and who they but there are idol groups out there that are much more artificial and hide that personal aspect. Some indie group idols are similar to maid cafes employees in that they change into a completely different character and even change their voice, to the point where they are 'mascot'-like for marketability purposes. This fabricated 'cutesy' element is so prevalent in the media that the average non-fan associate this fakeness with the term 'idol' without realizing that there are many different groups out there. I'm personally not a fan of this fabrication and that's the reason why I enjoy H!P, which is very natural. Even the big reactions are  often just the girls having fun with each other (especially noticeable in Country Girls). Yes, some have 'characters', like Oda is the one always being teased, but both the audience and members fully know they're all just having fun with her and actually like her a lot. H!P members have so much exposure that the moment they try to fake personality traits it would be immediately pointed out by the fans or even the members themselves. Up Front does not bother making rules about  'character building' and does not tell anyone not to expose certain things that would conflict with their character. Haruna once exposed Riho when she was younger for making a snide remark even though she was seen as an honors student, to name but one of out many examples.

 

I honestly think the fans would not mind at all to hear about the idols being troubled and depressed; they would probably try to cheer them up again. Most people genuinely like the members and wouldn't selfishly expect them to be cheerful when they are not. However, positive energy and a good smile attracts people (idols or not) and depression would result in a potential loss of sales for the agency. To not show that range of emotion means to be a professional, especially in the Japanese business world where it is heavily applauded. I don't think most fans see them as a lighthearted distraction though, their love for idols is almost a path in life. Casual fans have a much stronger presence outside of Japan and idol agencies do a lot to keep you hooked into their world and make you watch out for future events you might be able to attend.

 

To answer your question though, Hello Project groups are very different than how Next=You was portrayed in the drama. You could tell by their introductions alone that they were heavily investing in their characters and are much more like the stereotypical image people have of idols, which disappointed me a little. Like I said, there are groups out there like this, but do not think Budoukan is an accurate portrayal of how things work; the book author did not seem to be extremely knowledgeable on the subject and made flawed assumptions about the industry throughout the story.

[Lurkette]

Then virtually every idol group but H!P has some investment in character development, so that's why the drama focused on that, and, again, characters are based on traits the girls already have; it's not being "fake." They wouldn't be able to keep their characters up if it didn't already come somewhat naturally. Maybe some consider H!P exceptional in this regard, but I still doubt that the H!P members are really all that "natural," since it's not like you really know them personally. After all, we do have some backstage mic rips that show them in a very different light than who they are in front of a camera, for better or for worse. Idols are all performers putting on a show at the end of the day, and not just as musical performers, but as public personas. It's all a show. You can choose to believe that some of it is real or that all of it is fake, but... that's the nature of kayfabe. It's up to you to determine what you believe is real or not.

[Kuraudo17]

Idols enhance positive aspects and suppress negative ones to show themselves in their best light; this is exactly what normal people do in public settings and it's by no means being fake. 

 

That sounds like wishful thinking, to be honest. While there are people who would try very hard to keep appearances, I wouldn't say it's common enough that all "normal people" do it. So far it sounds like idols are more like some WWE wrestlers, whose personas are themselves magnified. And we all know wrestling is fake.

Up Front does not bother making rules about  'character building' and does not tell anyone not to expose certain things that would conflict with their character.

 

 

How would you know? These are trained professionals.

the book author did not seem to be extremely knowledgeable on the subject and made flawed assumptions about the industry throughout the story.

 

 

Didn't Karin say in an interview that the book did portray idols right, just that her character (a newbie) is opposite of her who's been training since she was little?

 After all, we do have some backstage mic rips that show them in a very different light than who they are in front of a camera, for better or for worse.

 

 

Do you have links for this? I only heard one where Oda and Kudo(?) were excited about some boy backstage, and some other MM talking about a certain member getting rich old fans in handshakes or something.

[Lurkette]

^ I'll see what I can find. That's infamous one where Kudo is talking to Sayuki about her fans and Karin's fans and how they're all just a bunch of rich old guys, and then there's another where Erina is crying to Sayumi about how everyone tells her she's weird. 

 

Here's a matome talking about the Kudo incident, with a transcript and a link to the audio (audio is on Tudou so you may have to fiddle around to get it to play): http://news020.blog1...entry-1917.html

[Kinjiru]

 

Idols enhance positive aspects and suppress negative ones to show themselves in their best light; this is exactly what normal people do in public settings and it's by no means being fake. 

 

That sounds like wishful thinking, to be honest. While there are people who would try very hard to keep appearances, I wouldn't say it's common enough that all "normal people" do it. So far it sounds like idols are more like some WWE wrestlers, whose personas are themselves magnified. And we all know wrestling is fake.

Up Front does not bother making rules about  'character building' and does not tell anyone not to expose certain things that would conflict with their character.

 

 

How would you know? These are trained professionals.

the book author did not seem to be extremely knowledgeable on the subject and made flawed assumptions about the industry throughout the story.

 

 

Didn't Karin say in an interview that the book did portray idols right, just that her character (a newbie) is opposite of her who's been training since she was little?

 After all, we do have some backstage mic rips that show them in a very different light than who they are in front of a camera, for better or for worse.

 

 

Do you have links for this? I only heard one where Oda and Kudo(?) were excited about some boy backstage, and some other MM talking about a certain member getting rich old fans in handshakes or something.

 

 

1. How is it wishful thinking when it is the most natural modus operandi for us human beings in a setting where we have to appeal to others? And why would they be trying 'very hard to keep appearances'? You think normal people are constantly stressing out and putting in a huge amount of effort in smiling in public settings and not mentioning how they dislike that guy across the room? No, it comes naturally. How is wrestling even slightly comparable? Wrestlers adopt a completely different personality for the sake of a script, are trust into obviously fake story lines and participate in matches/interactions that are completely scripted down to the very words. As a fan of WWE from even before the attitude era I can safely say that idols, and especially H!P ones, do not even come close to the fabrication that is wrestling. Wrestlers' main motivations are wanting to kick some other actors' ass or else you wouldn't have any wrestling to begin with, which is already in conflict with who they are as normal person. That is a huge difference on its own.

 

2. I gave an example exactly after that sentence. H!P members break each others' character all the time and even when someone tries to establish one they eventually go back to being their usual self again. By how often this happens it's obvious the managers are not giving them instructions to not intervene. These are girls with personalities we have been witnessing since the moment they entered the industry, not robots. You don't have to be a psychiatrist to see the difference between someone being themselves and someone who is clearly adapting a character unless you have not participated in human society for the past decades. If you don't know Japanese and can not understand them in all the forms of media exposure they get (DVD magazines, webstreams, blogs, radio shows, etc.) than it's a different story and it would be much harder to make a fair assessment of them. And why would they try to fake themselves and adapt a character if they're loved for who they are? We've had members consulting both Tsunku and other members on what they should do to stand out more and if they should maybe work on a character and such and they're told to not stress too much about it and work on their artistic performances. Hiding your true personality and completely adopting a character is stressful and although many OG H!P members were put under that kind of pressure so they could sell themselves, it's obvious that Up Front has relaxed over the years and H!P has become a much friendlier environment.

 

3. I said 'subject', not idols. Of course idols struggle with weight, bikini appearances, the love ban, etcl that much is obvious. I was referring to how the author imposed a certain view on the relationship between fans and idols that might not have been relatable to many actual fans.

 

4. I believe Lurkette referred to how Oda/Duu mentioned a certain boy dance (cover) group they knew from Nico Nico/Youtube(?) being in the audience. It's something fans can expect them to be excited about and it's not a big deal, really. When Duu was still in Kenshuusei she mentioned Karin having a lot of old guys with lots of money as fans, and how she herself had more, like, high-school students and stuff. Kudou has recently been referring to how she was kind of a bad person back in the day however, and apparently feels embarrassed over it.

[Kuraudo17]

1. If you constantly interact with people who act like idols, then I envy you. In the reality I live in, they don't. Appeal to others? As far as I'm concerned, in reality people are more concerned about their personal space. Idols want to appeal to you, because it's their job - the more fans they get, the more successful they are in their chosen career. Again, if you're surrounded with people who act like idols and that's what's "normal" to you, I envy you.

 

"Why would they be trying 'very hard to keep appearances'?" Because that's what it means to appeal to others, which you believe to be "is the most natural modus operandi for us human beings?"

 

"How is wrestling even slightly comparable? Wrestlers adopt a completely different personality for the sake of a script." Wrong. Many wrestlers are just exaggerated versions of themselves. The Rock and Steve Austin are known for this. Others play a character, like The Undertaker, but not everyone does. These days we have CM Punk, Daniel Bryan etc. They're not active anymore but you know what I mean.

 

"As a fan of WWE from even before the attitude era" Guys from the Attitude Era are now more open about the industry behind the scenes. Check it out. Stone Cold's podcasts are highly recommended.

 

2. "I gave an example exactly after that sentence." You gave an observation derived from whatever UFA wants us to see. That doesn't mean "Up Front does not bother making rules about  'character building' and does not tell anyone not to expose certain things that would conflict with their character." Do you realize how much content we *don't* get to see? If you have any insider info about UFA rules, I'm sure everyone here would love to hear it.

 

"You don't have to be a psychiatrist to see the difference between someone being themselves and someone who is clearly adapting a character unless you have not participated in human society for the past decades." Can you tell me who among the H!P Kids smoke? Give me your best guess. You might know, because clearly you have a skillset even forensic experts only wish they had. In all seriousness, this again is wishful thinking. You can believe what you want, like believe you know what UFA tells its idols, but people are complex and varied. Many are good at putting up appearances. If experts couldn't tell who are serial killers hiding in plain sight, I don't think a little exposure to "human society for the past decades" will let them do it.

 

"And why would they try to fake themselves and adapt a character if they're loved for who they are?" Their character on cam anyway.

 

3. That was a reply to the other person.

 

4. Not sure what your point is. Crushes lead to relationships. Relationships are scandalous in the idol industry. Nice to see they've given Kudou a proper way to address the past that inadvertently leaked to the public, though.

[Kinjiru]

1. The reality you live in does not have people that emphasize their good qualities and suppress their negative qualities for the sake of marketability and personal status? And how does this statement conflict with people liking their private space again? Exactly.

 

2. That sounds like something a conspiracy theorist would come up with. Instead of making others claim why something is natural, why not prove why and how it is unnatural in the first place? That's how it usually goes. Fake things are easy spot and show inconsistency. Things in H!P add up. Saying everyone is faking themselves and just lying constantly is a huge stretch.

 

Telling you who smokes will prove if someone is acting in or out of character how exactly? The two things are unrelated. I do not need to know whether Haruna smokes or not to know she genuinely likes anime. Again, they emphasize characteristics and suppress bad ones as is shown over and over again. In a surreal world everything can be orchestrated. Your friends could be working for the CIA and just keeping tabs on you, but how likely is that? Observation and reasoning provide us with the key to understanding and we can distinguish between people because of them. I don't need to know a member's favorite color to know what kind of person they are; they show us that through multiple channels of communication.  To believe they are faking to be a completely different person throughout all these channels without giving away any hints of it, especially when many of these members barely have a strong media character to begin with and often just talk like normal people on the radio/in interviews, is quite a stretch. Sure, every member could just be lying and Sayumi could have actually been punching her kouhai on a daily basis backstage, forcing them to cover up the blue spots with make-up, but...seriously?

 

3. No, you quoted me.

 

4. It was said we see them in a different light. Only Duu's paints herself in a different light, and this was from before she became an idol in a period of time where she admitted she was a brat. As such, it's difficult to think of her differently the way she is now.

[Kuraudo17]

1. Market to who? Do people around you act like you're deciding whether to hire them for a job? Or do they just act like idols? Wearing a huge grin on your face when you eat something that probably tastes mediocre because the camera is on you is far, faaaar different from highlighting your good traits.

 

2. What? That stating your claim that you know UFA's directives to its idols is a conspiracy theory? On the contrary, isn't assuming you know what goes on behind the scenes when you don't more akin to what conspiracy theorists do? 

 

"Fake things are easy spot and show inconsistency. Things in H!P add up." A consistent character adds up.

 

"Telling you who smokes will prove if someone is acting in or out of character how exactly?" It was a rhetorical question, the point being you wouldn't know much outside of what is portrayed by the idols (i.e. their character), unless you have a supernatural ability that forensic experts and psychiatrists etc. wish they had.

 

"To believe they are faking to be a completely different person throughout all these channels without giving away any hints of it" It's a good fantasy, isn't it? Then MM shocked the world in the mid-2000 and from then on most non-wota Japanese people I ask about idols say they're so fake.

 

3. My bad. I was sure one of my replies was to the other person, guess it's the 4th one. Your reply honestly didn't make sense to me so I thought it must've been the reply in question. My point was that Karin lent truth to the book and the book explored the life of the idol, not just in gaining weight or whatever superficial but also the separation between the idol and the person, which was a strong element in the story.

 

4. According to what she said on camera, which idols get training for.

[Kinjiru]

1. Even if you just pick one word out of the sentence it's not going to help, lol. Market to society, it is not strictly a business term used solely for goods and services. People generally want to show themselves in the best light possible because it is beneficial in more ways than one. Also, you are talking about idol promotion activities in which they are obviously instructed to make good comments. Everyone knows that they are not being necessarily sincere when it comes to these kind of activities and no fan expects them to be since there is no other way around it and no one cares about them being honest or not anyway; it's PR. Similarly, on GNO when the girls walk around temples and promote the area it is obvious they are in total 'PR' mode. When they are saying 'Hey, aren't you getting hungry?' in those fake voices it's clear they're moving on to the next segment and were just told to say that. One can often tell if something is scripted or not through the context and whether there is a need for it. The fans know when they're just PRing, they themselves realize we know, but no one cares; it's promotion. Look at them during the Satoyama event, which is almost entirely PR and you can tell how they differ from usual, lol.

 

2. I am pointing at something and say "They're being themselves and presenting themselves positively." You are pointing at it and saying "They have been lying about themselves to the public since the moment they joined." You tell me which one sounds more like conspiracy theory-ish. I am not the one who needs to provide evidence to the contrary here.

 

"Fake things are easy spot and show inconsistency. Things in H!P add up." A consistent character adds up.

But it doesn't, unless they acted the same way in front of the other members and were top level actresses since the day they entered the group at the age of...what, 13? My, my, they are even better actors outside of their musicals than when they are actually actresses! In secret, the footage shown on Hello Station of them practicing for their roles is just fabricated and they are actually getting lessons on how to become worse actresses, so no one suspects they're acting on a daily basis! So in Lilium and all the other plays they are actually acting out their own character in the role of another character. That's some Inception/Robert Downey Jr. stuff right there. I wonder how they come up with their own character, does Tsunku write an autobiography with life stories and personality quirks for each kenshuusei and person who makes it to the final auditions? Wow.

 

Instead of there being a grand master plan, let me tell you how it is more likely to develop. A teen enters the group and feels a certain responsibility to stand out. She slightly opens up to other members and staff and gets feedback.

'You are kinda quiet and I'm not sure how to react when you eventually do speak up. It's difficult to play off of you!'

'Hey, why don't you try to be the awkward KY character? That way you can just kind of say what you want and the members will follow up making fun of you!'

Teen learns her weaknesses and turns them into strength, capitalizing on a quality unique to herself. She now knows how to draw attention to herself and found her place in the group without pretending to be someone she is not. Happy end. Is this not much more natural than the belief they're all pretending to be someone they're not and just making up stuff along the way?

 

 

"Telling you who smokes will prove if someone is acting in or out of character how exactly?" It was a rhetorical question, the point being you wouldn't know much outside of what is portrayed by the idols (i.e. their character), unless you have a supernatural ability that forensic experts and psychiatrists etc. wish they had.

 

I know it's rhetoric, but read back for a bit. I was referring to seeing the difference between them being in and out of character. You ask me who smokes, which as you explain, is a point to address we don't know anything about idols other than what is communicated to us. They are two different things. Whatever we do not see of them does not change the person we see. If I know someone and figure out they smoke 3 months down the line I am not going to put in question whether he's been lying about him liking bungee jumping all this time. We may not know everything about even the people we know best but we can't live our live expecting them to be insincere to everyone around them.

 

 

"To believe they are faking to be a completely different person throughout all these channels without giving away any hints of it" It's a good fantasy, isn't it? Then MM shocked the world in the mid-2000 and from then on most non-wota Japanese people I ask about idols say they're so fake.

To believe they are is indeed a fantasy. I am sure people who know the least about idols and only have the mainstream fake idol image in their (I won't be mentioning any major groups by name) head are a good source of information when it comes to the industry.

 

4. She gets training for what, mentioning she was a brat ages after? How is this beneficial to her as an idol again? It's not as if people are ruining her image or she got into a scandal or anything recently; just as popular as ever. How is this all part of a bigger plan rather than her just joking and revealing a tidbit of info on herself?

[Kuraudo17]

1. That is so vague, it doesn't mean anything. That's why I ask you to be specific. Again, market to who? Do people around you act like you're deciding whether to hire them for a job? Or do they just act like idols? Wearing a huge grin on your face when you eat something that probably tastes mediocre because the camera is on you is not promotional, it's an idol thing we see all the time. Or are they in promo mode all the time? Then you argue that normal people do that? Do people act like idols around you, then?

 

It's the same as the idea that idols don't poop. Can you imagine your Kudo taking a huge dump? She does it with a huge smile on her face, just to market herself to you. That's how your argument sounds like.

 

2. No, I said you couldn't possibly know what UFA tells its idols. I never said they've been lying from the beginning. But sure, let's see this "evidence" of yours, because I can tell you having experience in TV and film production that people who face the camera for the first time will NEVER be their natural selves. In the case of idols, you can view your "evidence" and see that they just get more comfortable in their new skin.

 

What? A consistent character doesn't add up? It's literally what consistent means. It's like Undertaker never breaking keyfabe. Footage shown will always be footage we're allowed to see. Stop pretending you know what goes on behind the scenes like some conspiracy theorist, because unless you show any proof that you do, you don't.

 

3. "In and out of character" = Your perception, or your fantasy, of what constitutes a character or not, based on what you can see. On cam vs. off cam = the reality you can't and refuse to see. It's not about who smokes. It's about whether you can tell who smokes, using your supernatural ability, so that you can show everyone here that you do know whether an idol is being real or not.

 

A fact that was exposed by various scandals is a fantasy? Really? And the idol image sold to you by the business that is UFA is reality? Really? Do you honestly believe this? Do you think Kudo takes a dump with a smile on her face just to please you?

 

4. They get training for everything. What to say and not say, how to apologize for things without actually bringing them to light or admitting they're true, etc.

 

Tell you what, you wanna see idols who aren't completely detached from their natural selves just to please you? Take a look at the early AKB48, or Momoiro Clover, or since they're an all-girl band that has to "emphasize their good qualities and suppress their negative qualities" because they're still entertainers like everyone else, Scandal. Then tell me that these groups are not more natural, even on talk shows, than anything UFA has packaged for you.

[Punkin]

Wait, so let me get this straight: You started a thread asking how natural idols are, only to argue with anyone that says H!P is any type of natural and insist everyone's a bunch of faking liars? You have too much time on your hands.

 

I agree with Kinjiru on this topic. Also, I think some of Budokan was meant to make other idol groups/companies look bad or make fun of them a bit in some ways.

[Kuraudo17]

Wait, so let me get this straight: You started a thread asking how natural idols are, only to argue with anyone that says H!P is any type of natural and insist everyone's a bunch of faking liars? You have too much time on your hands.

 

I agree with Kinjiru on this topic. Also, I think some of Budokan was meant to make other idol groups/companies look bad or make fun of them a bit in some ways.

Too much time on my hands? Can you see how long the replies of the other person are? I honestly just skim through some of them because they're trying to support a point in keyfabe, so to speak. It's like saying, "Oh, the Undertaker is REALLY bad. Did you see him bury Paul Bearer?"

 

I agree with what most people have said in this thread except Kinjiru, who seems to think he/she has a supernatural ability to read how these idols really are outside their idol persona, and insider info on what UFA tells its idols.

[Kinjiru]

I am saying the exact same thing as the rest of the people so either you are not agreeing with me or just don't want to based on your opinion of me. I enjoy both debating and writing but just burst out laughing at the 'Kudou taking a huge dump' remark and realized that I am talking to someone who seems to be reading arguments in a way that favors their own perception of the group. If you are not willing to understand and 'skim' through things, than there is no point to discussion. I can keep cutting down any of the remarks you seem to pass off as ' arguments', but there is no point; you want to be right and will back it up with whatever you can come up with in an attempt to counter. This supernatural ability you are referring to is called reasoning. It is not as remarkable as you might think it is, but it can definitely be a rarity in some areas. Like Punkin said, you opened up a point of discussion by creating the thread but you're already set on your opinion. Remember, you are the one who started quoting my post line by line.

 

It would be nice to have other people comment on the topic, I am curious as to what their opinion is.