247 replies to this topic

[Ares13]

Anyway.. I just use the word generally for idol I support in any idol group..
It's easier and most people would technically understand..
But actually.. then again.. I realise that people must at least know a bit about akb48 to work..

[True_Beginner]

AKB48 was honestly the first idol group in Japan to actively promote otaku culture out to the mainstream, deliberately, by both management and the girls themselves. This is how all of these terms and the various parts of this subculture became so well-known to casuals. Before AKB48, all of this was looked upon with scorn and contempt, and very few people really knew about these things and terms. But now, it's quite different. For example, I cannot recall the usage of "oshimen" in an H!P context before AKB48 existed - it's only after AKB48 entered the scene that others starting using these terms as well. At least to my current knowledge.

 

Of course things like wotagei and many other things existed before AKB48, but they started selling these things as part of the product and managed to do so quite successfully.

 

Edit: True_Beginner, the reason why there's no emphasis on oshimen with Perfume and KARA is that they are completely different from idol groups. So the term doesn't apply there.

 

That would make a lot of sense actually. Aki-P did establish the group in Akihabara, so of course the environment there probably affected how the group was going to develop it's culture and concept. I've seen a few history of AKB documentaries, but can't remember the exact reason why they started there, other than it being the right place at the right moment. Management didn't seem to have otaku down in the beginning, but naturally they would be the kind of fans that were there before anyone knew about them. The concept of idols you could meet, which really meant to see on stage, eventually became about fan participation through stuff like handshake events and elections. Even the idea of the senbatsu election was based on fans giving management input for members they wanted to see more of or liked, so the otaku's enthusiasm did a lot to create this culture of 'fan support' and individualizing everything down to how they are managed. It's what makes AKB so different and why it became the phenomenon it was...the relationship a fan could have with their favorite idol, or oshimen.

 

It's actually pretty amazing that the group's concept works with non-otaku and other types of people, without being a part of the subculture that existed in it's early days (and somewhat adapted since then). There is a lot of drama and uncertainty to it all at times, but that's part of what makes it such an appealing product too I guess.

 

Also, you're right about Perfume, haha. They come off as idols to me, but a lot of sources refer to them as a pop group or pop act, so I guess there's a difference somewhat in how they are managed. Kara on the other hand is an idol group in Korea, all boy bands and girl bands in Kpop are referred to as idols since they have love-ban rules and such. They're still a lot different from Jpop idols in the types of songs they do, although early Girls Generation and Kara had some songs that really catered to a male audience like "Oh" and "Mister".

[blanclait]

^
AKB48 is the first idol concept that I ever got into and probably (hopefully not) will be my last. The points you mentioned about the intimacy and the frequency of contacts really makes them feel like people. 

The other idol groups, you don't really know much about their character.  

 

In today's world, alienation is a reoccurring phenomenon. When I was young, I didn't know that many people, but I knew them on a personal level. Now, I may know hundreds but I don't know anything about them. 
Therefore, some members of AKB48 feels much closer to me than most people I know irl

I really hope they last. 

Anyway, as for my oshimen. Either sasshi or matsui rena. 

[scopefun]

^ Sorry Blancait, but when you say that for other idol groups you don't really know much about their character, that's just you, who don't follow them.

There are a lot of DVD, TV Shows and blogs to learn about them.

You probably just don't know about it.

Of course there are more stuff about AKB because they are mainstream at the moment, but that was the same in early 2000's with Morning Musume.

It was not about blogs, but maybe more TV Shows appearances.

And much less members to learn about.

[Krusha]

You both have a point, but you are both a little bit off as well. 

 

While it has now become 2014, and AKB48 is the supreme and dominant leader in the idol world, and has been for years and years, with a vast catalogue of material when we talk about things that lets you understand an idol's personality - in both TV broadcasts and DVD/BD - this issue of "personality" was something that was AKB48's speciality back in the days as well. I recall a TV clip several years ago where there were some girls from H!P and some girls from AKB48 together in the studio, and they were about the same age, all of them idols. But the H!P girls seemed 'trained' to be more reserved, more "formal" and "proper" - something the AKB48 girls were not, and thus they appeared far more relaxed and also interesting. Bear in mind that companies tend to have different policies on how to run things. H!P does have a flair of being more conservative - in many ways - and the complaint have been for years and years that H!P lacks personality. Remember when Linlin and Junjun were members, and they were held to be the funniest in the group? That's because they didn't hold back. 

 

Of course there are other groups outside of both 48G and H!P that have interesting girls, but a key point of 48G since its inception has been to have idols that are unique in personality, in other words you can always find a girl to your liking, no matter who you are, because they cross the entire spectrum. 

 

With the 48G groups, there's a much higher focus on personalities than in H!P, and of course it helps that they have many, many outlets to show these talents in, but it has always been like this, also before their massive sales number days.

[blanclait]

^ Sorry Blancait, but when you say that for other idol groups you don't really know much about their character, that's just you, who don't follow them.

There are a lot of DVD, TV Shows and blogs to learn about them.

You probably just don't know about it.

Of course there are more stuff about AKB because they are mainstream at the moment, but that was the same in early 2000's with Morning Musume.

It was not about blogs, but maybe more TV Shows appearances.

And much less members to learn about.

I'm sorry I didn't mean to offend. I should have worded better.

I wasn't comparing akb48 to other idol groups in Japan with similar concepts.
Rather, I was comparing them to idol groups in America and Korea that I was exposed to.

You are right, I don't know much about the idol scene. Therefore, there could be a group in Korea and America that does what akb48 is doing.

But the point in my message is not an assertion that akb48 is the first or the best. Rather it was just an explanation of why I enjoy akb48. 

I'll try to type more carefully next time. 

 

Also, thank you Krusha for highlighting some difference between the two groups. I was always curious about their differences. 

[Krusha]

Mind you, these are subtle differences. But it's true that in some cases H!P is more conservative, because while they are idols - they kept much more of a distance between them and the fans. This is what AKB48 changed. And also introducing otaku culture concepts to their product deliberately, instead of letting it be an optional choice for fans of the group. Part of Akimoto's concept is to have girls with unique personalities that are easily noticed, regardless of the girl being an extrovert or an introvert etc.

[True_Beginner]

Also, AKB is about being able to meet your favorite idols in person, whether through stage shows at local theaters or handshake events. They're what made meeting idols in person such an important concept. Since before them, you only had TV appearances or concerts mainly to get to meet your idol in person. Getting to know them isn't too different from another group, in terms of the internet and such, but meeting them is something they try to make more frequent than other groups.

[X_death-angel_X]

Is Multiple Oshimen considered in here??

In fact, I have multiple oshimen (24 oshimen (non-graduated members), 6 oshimen (graduated members) and 2 kami-oshi (graduate and non-graduate) and still updating)

 

Kami-oshi, from the word itself Kami (god), refers to your most fully supported member among all of your oshi... Additionally, an/the (if many) irreplaceable oshimen/s..
 

[Ares13]

^ er .. no ..

I had 18 oshimen (non grad), 6 oshimen(grad) and 5 kami-oshi per 48G with 1 group having 2 kami ..
I even have 3 level of Kami-oshi before normal oshimen .. but only 1 highest oshimen at any time ..
and this is only for AKB48 Group .. I have another 27 oshimen in 16 different group outside of 48G ..
Add them all up .. its 45 oshimen .. LOL .. so do you think it will work?

I used to promote and reason for this multiple oshimen thing .. but it will become a bad habit ..
you will just keep adding whenever 1 of them do something that totally get you or when you need a fresh new member to keep your interest up ..

to me .. multiple oshimen don't really work anymore .. because 48G are very big and they take turns to push their members ..
nowadays they are so many good newcomer that get me .. and getting a team 8 oshi is a matter of time then a few team 8 oshi will come ..
furthermore the sister groups girls are all coming up .. I could add endlessly ...

however for other non 48 group except of NGZK46 .. the other groups are all smaller fix size group ..
So multiple oshimen could work but .. in these group oshimen is just the member you support and have less meaning because there is no such thing as senbatsu and there is not much to "push" for ..

anyway .. an administrator here have change my post here before .. changing all me "oshimen" to "favorite" .. lol
but that is not the reason I change.. its because its near impossible to keep up ..
basically .. I have known people who have multiple oshimen ..but its just a feel good thing because ..
they are only treating a small few as oshimen .. the majority rest are like a upper class favorite ..lol

Now I have reset my fandom .. i only have 4 oshimen in each 48G .. the rest are upper class favorite ..lol
I only have multiple oshimen in other groups and I can keep up because its name sake ... its just to separate those I like more ..there is no favorite for smaller groups for me..lol

but I do keep my 3 level of kami-oshi for my whole fandom .. and I structure it to 8 Kami .. 1 highest level .. 3 2nd level and 4 3rd level ..
I will maintain this .. and I can shift this around to any of my oshimen .. in all its just for direction and for budgeting on who should I spend more money and attention on .. because I can't support them all ..all the time ..

but of course .. this don't sound fair for 48G as I only have 4 oshimen to like 20+ oshimen from other group ..
but all my 48G oshimen are Kami-oshi level .. so it balance off the numbers .. LOL
My new system ..

[X_death-angel_X]

Oh my.. And I thought I'm the only one who has multiple oshimen here.. Hehehehehe

 

I've set my number limit rule so that the maximum number of non-graduate members that I've put in my oshimen list is 24....

 

Once a member will graduate, the number in my non-graduated members oshimen list will be decreased and the graduated members oshimen list will be increased....

 

Which means they're still my oshi, even they're graduated from the group...

 

As of now, excluding the graduate members, I only have 25 oshimen!!!!

[Krusha]

The word you're looking for is DD.

[satchan]

Yeah, that's definitely DD. There's nothing wrong with DD, but "25 oshimen" is DD, not oshimen.

[X_death-angel_X]

LOL.. DD??? Well sort off..... But neither my wota friends called me that nor saying that I'm DD... 

 

Actually they said to me.. "Don't worry if you have many oshimens as long as you know who is (or are) your most priority."

 

It's unavoidable of having many oshimen, out of 300+ members (including the foreign sister group) you will choose, under some circumstances.

 

Let say my oshimen is Kizaki Yuria, but Kashiwagi Yuki is my oshimen too... I'll also make Takahashi Minami, Watanabe Mayu, Kojima Haruna, Matsui Rena and Matsui Jurina as my oshimen too. Despite of all these, you still have who is/are your main priority, hence Kami-oshi.

 

Let me redefine the meaning of oshimen, from the two words, oshi "push", and men which is shorten from the katakana word, menba "member"... By the definition, means a member that you'll support or push. The word oshimen can be pluralized, means members that you'll support or push. In short, there's no only one oshimen, even the word Kami-oshi can be pluralized.

 

When the member/s is/are graduated from the group, the word oshimen is not recommended as this word can only applied to those are still in the group. Instead, I will put it as favorite artist/idol. Kami-oshi can still apply on the graduated member. So if you include the graduated members, I have 2 Kami-oshis..

 

Main priority is important when you have many oshimen list as you can't balance all of them at the same time, even you like your oshis. Instead we will put it in ranking system, in short your own senbatsu. The top one is your highest priority while the bottom one is your lowest priority. Like the yearly senbatsu, the ranking can be change.. Who knows, even your lowest-ranked oshi will be placed either fifth or sixth, depends on how you will observe on her actions.

 

In short there's no only one oshimen or kami-oshi.. Instead, there are ("is" if you really push it to only one) no. 1 oshimens and Kami-oshi..

 

I know many people who have many oshimens, including my brother (Kami-7 + 3 ni-oshi).

 

As of now, out of all those 25 oshimens, I only have 1 kami-oshi. (can be increase, depends if I can find someone who can fill the other thrones).

[Krusha]

Let me redefine the meaning of oshimen

 

Please don't. Words have meanings.

 

If I redefined the meaning of "orange" to encompass that of an apple, it would no longer be an orange, but it would be an apple. But there's already a word for that, you know, that of "apple". So no need... It's just pointless.

[Ares13]

LOL .. here we go again ..

@X_death-angel_X .. maybe you can read back on this thread .. I wrote many reasoning on why it is ok to have multiple oshimen ..

But there is one thing I am still learning now ..
That you can support and like a member without calling her or making her oshimen ..
Its actually personal how you feel about them ..
I know and I believe most know what oshimen means .. but to me its just something for us to state our focus and direction ..
I know that some fans thinks that if they don't call a member their oshimen .. they will lose the right to support them in front of other fans and that they should back off from fans that call a member oshimen ..

To me .. instead of fighting off this mindset that multiple oshimen is unacceptable ..why not fight off this mindset that you cannot support or like a member if she is not your oshimen .. LOL

[X_death-angel_X]

It's up to you whether you think multiple oshimen is unacceptable or not, I respect your decision...

 

After all, I don't have anything to explain... I just let it in myself....

 

*Yuria peace!*

[Ares13]

^

Anyway .. this oshimen thing is one of my favorite topic ..lol

because I always have unorthodox, revolutionary and ever changing ideas on it ..

 

To me it's the foundation of fandom .. it makes up a system or structure for fandom that can change and influence fandom ..

The interesting thing .. it actually don't exist and self made up .. but people can fight about it and turn it into a personal belief and representation ..

 

Overall .. I think just go for what work for you ...

But beware .. always remember ..

Support the girls, be a fan of the idols and not be a fan of your own fandom or oshimen structure ..

[X_death-angel_X]

Just to share mine...

Kizaki Yuria is my overall Kami-oshi, Yagami Kumi is my eternal Kami-oshi...

 

Add together, my eternal OTP....

[Ares13]

^ .. ok ..

 

for graduated oshimen .. I follow a different way .. I follow the H!P way of never forget but I let them go ..

Kumi is one of my kami level that left .. but I got a few of kami level that left ..

it started with MM Koharu .. then S/mileage Saki .. then SKE48 Kumi and recently and i am still not sure is she officially gone NMB48 Keira ..

basically .. I have to let them go .. if not I will quit the group .. the pain of them leaving will stop me from even looking at the group ..

but even so .. it does not work 100% well .. because I have never capture back the same level of love for the group compare to before they left the group ..

For oshimen .. many have left .. SKE48 is the best they almost clean all my oshimen away .. I got to start almost start anew.. LOL